The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Logan]

This is McGrath’s overall record :

Matches : 124
Wickets : 563
Average : 21
SR : 52
5WPI : 29 times
10WPM : 3 times


This is Muralitharan’s record between 2000-2009 alone.

Matches : 84
Wickets : 564
Average : 20
SR : 50
5WPI : 49 times
10WPM : 20 times



I don’t think Muralitharan was inferior to any spinner or pace bowler ever.

 

[ataraxia]

Wow.

 

[Red]

Using raw stats to compare spinners to quicks just shows a basic lack of understanding of how cricket matches work.

 

[Logan]

Nobody is comparing. Just saying Murali was just as good as anyone in history

 

[stephen]

He was. Even if he was statistically propped up by extremely favorable home decks.

 

[Days of Grace]

So Sangakkara and Jayawardene must be two of the greatest batsmen of all time to succeed on such spinning minefields.

 

[vcs]

Kumble and Harbhajan did not do well on Sri Lankan tracks. Weirdly, they would do well against Sri Lanka in India, and Murali would struggle. Blanket statements like extremely favourable home tracks are a bit unfair in my opinion.

 

[Days of Grace]

Murali’s stats are propped up with a mountain of wickets against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe rather than any great home deck advantage.

 

[h_hurricane]

Wierdly, only spinners are accused of taking advantage of favorable conditions. Some fast bowlers, even the ATG ones have proved to be toothless tigers outside their comfort zone.

 

[Bolo.]

So Sangakkara and Jayawardene must be two of the greatest batsmen of all time to succeed on such spinning minefields.

There is such a thing as favourable home decks, but its an oversimplification to look at them this way.

1. Are the decks generally bowling or batting friendly
2. Are the decks suited to the particular player's style
3. Are the decks suited to the opposition players style

Murali had an easy ride on the second two, but not the first. You wont often find all of these being hit at the same time. Mahela comes much closer than most

 

[stephen]

Murali’s stats are propped up with a mountain of wickets against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe rather than any great home deck advantage.

Have you seen his home and away stats?

Against non- Bangladesh/ Zimbabwe teams his home average is 22 vs almost 29 away. It's a gigantic home advantage.

I mean 29 is a fantastic average for a spinner and he'd almost be an ATG if his away stats were his career stats, but the decks in Sri Lanka were very Murali friendly.

The thing is that Murali favoured decks that were similar to the decks that Warne liked due to the excessive rip and slower pace than his Indian contemporaries. Indian spinners are almost all faster and turn the ball less because that's what their pitches favour.

The minnows help his stats too, but the pitches were a huge boon.

 

[Logan]

Wierdly, only spinners are accused of taking advantage of favorable conditions. Some fast bowlers, even the ATG ones have proved to be toothless tigers outside their comfort zone.

Using that logic, Lillee should never be considered an ATG. Outside of Aus/Eng, Lillee took just 28 wickets in 10 Tests.

 

[h_hurricane]

Using that logic, Lillee should never be considered an ATG. Outside of Aus/Eng, Lillee took just 28 wickets in 10 Tests.

Performance in Asia is not a yardstick for Lillee, never will be.

 

[kyear2]

Umm but you only replaced Imran with Steyn? But we can all agree to disagree. Afaic, there is absolutely a coat of varnish between the top 7 or so pacers: MM, McGrath, Hadlee, Ambrose, Imran, Steyn, Donald. Obviously, as has been said before, Imran is infinitely better than Steyn as a batsman , and he was an outstanding captain. Oh and imran also did well against the best team of his time (WI). Therefore imran Khan will be apart of my bowling attack any day of the week.

We all have our own opinions, I don't think there is a coat of varnish between as far down as the top 7, but we can agree to disagree. I also don't think Imran was quite top 7. Think the top 3 have separated themselves a bit from the crowd with Hadlee just a coat of varnish behind if not in the same class. Followed by the likes of Ambrose, Trueman, Lillee, Donald, Garner. And I don't see how one can definitively say that the ones at the bottom are equal and as well rounded with as complete records as the top 3.

 

[kyear2]

It's not a huge deal, but saying somebody's ATG XI is 'wrong' for not having a player in it is probably only justified if it's Gilchrist or Bradman being omitted

Whatever

But literally just did the same thing with Gilchrist.

And some would say the same thing with Sobers and some would add Hobbs and I personally say Marshall.

 

[trundler]

I'd say we can be a bit dogmatic about our ranking of pace bowlers. Marshall=McGrath=Hadlee=Steyn being the god tier of pace bowling is something I can easily get behind but outside CW most cricket fans would name Akram or Lillee as the greatest ever, even if you exclude casuals.

 

[a massive zebra]

Between 1995-2009, Australia team held the number one ranking for 155 weeks out of a possible 163 weeks (95%)

Between 1981-1995, West Indies team held the number one ranking for 163 weeks out of a possible 174 weeks (93%)

The two greatest Test teams ever

Do you mean months? There are a lot more than 155 and 174 weeks in the periods you specified.

 

[Logan]

I meant months

 

[Logan]

Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath and Steyn are the top four(no specific order) IMO.

 

[ankitj]

Ambrose has fallen out of the topmost echelon for most people here?