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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

Chrish

Chrish

International Debutant
Not really as a batsman alone. But no brainier when you consider his fielding and bowling variety. Playing him in All time XI would afford you to play 4 pace men instead of 1 spinner and 3 pace man which is a huge plus IMO.

In WI Xi, I would play him as a spin all-rounder that means I can operate with Marshall, Ambrose, Garner and Holding. Arguably best bowling attack of them all.
 
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Chrish

Chrish

International Debutant
Gavaskar
Hutton
Bradman
Sachin
Viv
Sobers
Gilchrist
Imran (c)
Marshall
Mcgrath
Steyn


Smith might end up here in future.
 
h_hurricane

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
Sobers was not much of a quality as a spinner and is easily inferior to his own medium pace version by a good margin.
 
Chrish

Chrish

International Debutant
Pace > spin IMO.

Historically teams with decent pace attacks have done well every where. And contrary to conventional wisdom, you need pace attack to be successful in SC rather than spin. Look at two most successful touring sides in India: SA and old WI team. Spin depends lot on conditions while pace is universal.

Sobers was used mainly as a containing bowler. His role was to keep things tight from one end while strike bowlers are resting; a role he fulfilled and that’s what I would intend him to do in a hypothetical scenario. And his SR is above 90 as a bowler but that can be attributed to the era he played in; 50s and 60s were considered to be dire era for cricket because most batsmen were very defensive.

One weakness in my side is lack of genuine slip fielders. A competent slip cordon is essential for the team and I only have Garry and may be Richards (?) who were good in slip. For that reason, I might be tempted to replace Steyn with Warne.
 
h_hurricane

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
Chrish said:
Pace > spin IMO.

Historically teams with decent pace attacks have done well every where. And contrary to conventional wisdom, you need pace attack to be successful in SC rather than spin. Look at two most successful touring sides in India: SA and old WI team. Spin depends lot on conditions while pace is universal.

Sobers was used mainly as a containing bowler. His role was to keep things tight from one end while strike bowlers are resting; a role he fulfilled and that’s what I would intend him to do in a hypothetical scenario. And his SR is above 90 as a bowler but that can be attributed to the era he played in; 50s and 60s were considered to be dire era for cricket because most batsmen were very defensive.

One weakness in my side is lack of genuine slip fielders. A competent slip cordon is essential for the team and I only have Garry and may be Richards (?) who were good in slip. For that reason, I might be tempted to replace Steyn with Warne.
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The issue is not with Sobers' overall strike rate of 90. He was a bowler of two parts. When he was a medium pace in 1960s, he was pretty good, one of the best in the world. He averaged 27-28 at his peak for 5-6 years.

As a spinner, he was Ravi Shastri level and not good enough to be in ATG team for that style of bowling.
 
Chrish

Chrish

International Debutant
h_hurricane said:
The issue is not with Sobers' overall strike rate of 90. He was a bowler of two parts. When he was a medium pace in 1960s, he was pretty good, one of the best in the world. He averaged 27-28 at his peak for 5-6 years.

As a spinner, he was Ravi Shastri level and not good enough to be in ATG team for that style of bowling.
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He could bowl both styles at any given stage. From what I have read, he bowled spin when he was playing a containing role; mainly in tests.

He played the role of attacking swing bowler mainly in FC cricket where he played as one of the strike bowlers for the team. I have read various anecdotes from players who played county cricket against him on how dangerous he was as a pace bowler.

The breakdown of his stats by different bowling style isn’t available. Would have been interesting to see.
 
L

Logan

U19 Captain
Chrish said:
Pace > spin IMO.
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I agree that pace is more effective than spin when all conditions are considered. That’s why most ATG teams have 3 pacers and 1 spinner.

But having no spinners in the team is but too much.
 
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L

Logan

U19 Captain
Chrish said:
So many people who have seen these players in action have claimed Garry to be the GOAT all rounder that it’s difficult to ignore.
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Most people and even ex-players claim Wasim Akram is the greatest bowler of all time. While Akram was the most versatile, I wound not rate him ahead of his peers like McGrath, Donald, Ambrose etc.
 
Gob

Gob

International Coach
Chrish said:
SA didn't need a spinner, did they?

Sobers can't do worse than Paul Harris or Imran Tahir.
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Chrish said:
Gavaskar
Hutton
Bradman
Sachin
Viv
Sobers
Gilchrist
Imran (c)
Marshall
Mcgrath
Steyn


Smith might end up here in future.
Click to expand...
Was referring to this. I can understand not picking a spinner for the sake of it and I wouldn't pick one in AT WI side cos Gibbs aside they were no good and even with respect to Gibbs, I think Sobers and Viv could chime in and fill that input

But when you are picking an AT test xi when you can pick any of Murali, Warne, O'Rielly or even Barns it's a no brainer. I saw both Murali and Warne at their best and they were as good as any strike fast bowler but brings a completely different dimension to the table especially when it comes to winning a game in the last day. There is no way to justify not picking them
 
h_hurricane

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
Chrish said:
He could bowl both styles at any given stage. From what I have read, he bowled spin when he was playing a containing role; mainly in tests.

He played the role of attacking swing bowler mainly in FC cricket where he played as one of the strike bowlers for the team. I have read various anecdotes from players who played county cricket against him on how dangerous he was as a pace bowler.

The breakdown of his stats by different bowling style isn’t available. Would have been interesting to see.
Click to expand...
Between 1961-68 Sobers took 125 wickets in 33 matches at 27.93. In his other 60 matches, he took 110 wickets at 40.97. He started off as a spin bowling tail ender and that is how he bowled in all his initial years.Probably in his later years as well though I am not very sure.

There was a cricinfo article about it, not able to find it quickly. But I would be very surprised if he averaged anything less than 40 as a spinner.
 
h_hurricane

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
Picking a 4th quick(lets say Holding) in an ATG WI team over Gibbs makes far more sense than using Sobers as primary spinner instead of Warne/Murali.
 
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