The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[stephen]

Many former players and players who played in 90s have rated Akram as the best bowler of his time; ahead of McGrath, Ambrose, Donald etc.

For example Lara said in interview that “Mcgrath might have gotten me out most often but Akram was the best bowler I faced by a mile”. Kallis also expressed similar sentiment.

Initially I thought it has do with Akram’s ability to do things with the ball. But after digging more about him, I feel convinced that if Pakistan had a competent slip cordon, Akram would have ended up with couple of runs lower in terms of bowling average.

It's all about his ability to do things with the ball. Batsmen were in awe of his ability to move it both ways with swing and seam and his ability to find reverse. How much of that was to do with bottle caps we'll never know. But even if he would have done better with better slips I still think Steyn is a step above. He was simply more effective and knew exactly how to best use his talent to take wickets. When to crank it up and when to bowl containing.

Personally I think Akram is vastly overrated by those who faced him because they saw his magicians tricks, but he simply wasn't as effective as either Ambrose or McGrath. How the (at best) third best bowler of his type and era makes an ATXI is beyond me.

 

[stephen]

The other thing which should (slightly) count against Akram was that he was arguably not as good as Waqar for a number of years. Although that's not a slight on Wasim at all because Waqar was close to the GOAT at his peak.

 

[kyear2]

Imran- 2
Hadlee - 1
Marshall - 3
Warne - 4

My ATG XI tailend.

Steyn has a good case but Imran's batting puts him marginally ahead. Depends what type of bowler you want. Perhaps I'm relying too much on Marshall here.

That's just batting overkill at the expense of their primary skill. Let's be honest, Imran, especially away from Pakistan, just isn't as good a bowler as Steyn or McGrath. Or Ambrose or Trueman, so why force him into a team where his primary job is to bowl.
Even if you include Hadlee (because of how similar he was to McGrath) , Marshall, Warne & Steyn. That's more than good enough. And a better compromise.

 

[stephen]

Hadlee, Marshall, Steyn and Warne would be the best tail in history. All those bowlers were genuine number 8s.

 

[stephen]

Peak XI (players who were significantly better at their peak than during the rest of their career):

Hayden
Trumper
Yousef
Clarke
Richards
Botham
Gilchrist
Imran
Warne
Johnson
Waqar

 

[ataraxia]

Peak XI (players who were significantly better at their peak than during the rest of their career):

Hayden
Trumper
Yousef
Clarke
Richards
Botham
Gilchrist
Imran
Warne
Johnson
Waqar

You could make a good second XI out of names like Faulkner and McCullum.

 

[TheJediBrah]

For example Lara said in interview that “Mcgrath might have gotten me out most often but Akram was the best bowler I faced by a mile”. Kallis also expressed similar sentiment.

That kind of seems like a really dumb thing to say tbh

Peak XI (players who were significantly better at their peak than during the rest of their career):

Hayden
Trumper
Yousef
Clarke
Richards
Botham
Gilchrist
Imran
Warne
Johnson
Waqar

Warne? How do you figure? Bloke was pretty much peak for his whole career. Same with Gilchrist barring his last year or 2

 

[Chrish]

It's all about his ability to do things with the ball. Batsmen were in awe of his ability to move it both ways with swing and seam and his ability to find reverse. How much of that was to do with bottle caps we'll never know. But even if he would have done better with better slips I still think Steyn is a step above. He was simply more effective and knew exactly how to best use his talent to take wickets. When to crank it up and when to bowl containing.

Personally I think Akram is vastly overrated by those who faced him because they saw his magicians tricks, but he simply wasn't as effective as either Ambrose or McGrath. How the (at best) third best bowler of his type and era makes an ATXI is beyond me.

Whenever I see Wasim video, it starts with someone dropping a catch in the slip. I have seen it happening far too often to discard it as a mere coincidence. I don't personally rate him as the best I have seen, but I can see why he garners so much admiration. And I don't believe any bowler is "level above" Wasim.

As for bottle-caps, almost every single pace bowler is a beneficiary of this .

 

[trundler]

I'd rate Steyn ahead but it isn't by a mile or anything. Dropped catches may sound like a **** excuse generally but Akram had to deal with the likes of Saleem Malik. It's a legit point when it comes to him imo. And he had a much, much longer career. Akram's last 4 years should be regarded in the same way as Viv or Ponting's imo.

 

[Logan]

1. Marshall

2. Steyn

3. Hadlee

4. McGrath

5. Ambrose

These are my top 5 fast bowlers

 

[Logan]

Wasim Akram may have been the most versatile bowler but that doesn’t make him the best. Glen McGrath wasn’t the most versatile but he was arguably the best bowler in history.

 

[Chrish]

It's sad that we missed Tendulkar vs two Ws battles in 90s. What a mouth-watering contest it would have been! Especially before Waqar got injured.

 

[trundler]

Tendulkar was still a teen in those years ago it wouldn't have been very fair. Still would've been epic circa 1996.

 

[stephen]

That kind of seems like a really dumb thing to say tbh



Warne? How do you figure? Bloke was pretty much peak for his whole career. Same with Gilchrist barring his last year or 2

Warne peaked at the start and end of his career. I couldn't think of another spinner who had a peak significantly far from their career record.

Similarly Gilchrist before 05 was way better than post-05. I couldn't think of a better keeper for the XI.

Who would you choose?

 

[TheJediBrah]

Warne peaked at the start and end of his career.

not really

 

[ankitj]

That kind of seems like a really dumb thing to say tbh



Warne? How do you figure? Bloke was pretty much peak for his whole career. Same with Gilchrist barring his last year or 2

Warne did have a bleak period towards late 90s to early 2000s IIRC. Consequently would have had a great peak too. But I don't imagine Warne's peak could be better than Murali's.

Gilchrist was avraging 60+ after some 3 years of test cricket. So he might qualify.

 

[ankitj]

Easiest way to make a peak XI would be to refer to peak ICC ratings, wouldn't it? I have found it mirroring known great peaks rather well.

ICC Player Rankings
ICC Player Rankings

So:

Len Hutton
Jack Hobbs
Don Bradman
Steven Smith
Ricky Ponting
Andy Flower +
Ian Botham
Imran Khan *
Muttiah Muralitharan
Glenn McGrath
Sydney Barnes

I cheated a bit to exclude Lohmann and Cummins (didn't realize latter was in middle of such a good peak, overtaking so many greats in the process).

Edit: replaced Ambrose with Botham who has only one point lower peak bowling rating of 911 and we all know he had a mad peak as an all-rounder.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Warne did have a bleak period towards late 90s to early 2000s IIRC. Consequently would have had a great peak too. But I don't imagine Warne's peak could be better than Murali's.

Gilchrist was avraging 60+ after some 3 years of test cricket. So he might qualify.

Warne had a brief poor period (relatively speaking) due to his shoulder injury and then was banned for a year.

In my book that doesn't qualify for the rest of his 15 year career (ie. almost all of it) being called a "peak"

Easiest way to make a peak XI would be to refer to peak ICC ratings, wouldn't it? I have found it mirroring known great peaks rather well.

ICC Player Rankings
ICC Player Rankings

So:

Len Hutton
Jack Hobbs
Don Bradman
Steven Smith
Ricky Ponting
Andy Flower +
Ian Botham
Imran Khan *
Muttiah Muralitharan
Glenn McGrath
Sydney Barnes

I cheated a bit to exclude Lohmann and Cummins.

Edit: replaced Ambrose with Botham who has only one point lower peak bowling rating of 911 and we all know he had a mad peak as an all-rounder.

yeah but that's a bit different to stephen's contention of players that had a great peak but the rest of their careers were relatively less impressive

 

[ankitj]

Ah OK. I actually picked a near ATG XI who had exceptional peaks. Still fun to look at.

 

[stephen]

Anyway it's just for fun. Gilchrist and Warne didn't perfectly for the criteria. Murali doesn't either, though probably does by about as much as Warne.

Maybe I could drop Hayden and replace him with Amla, who I remember being utterly ridiculous at his peak.

Amla
Trumper~
Yousef
Clarke
Richards~
Botham
Gilchrist~
Imran
Johnson
Warne~
Waqar

~looking for a better option.