The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Bolo.]

Steyn, Donald, Kallis and Graeme Pollock are all literal locks. Period.

Do you really think 3 right arm quicks are locks when you have 2 ATG right arm quicks who also can bat in the wings, plus an atg spinner, and an atg spinning AR pushing for a slot, plus the left armers, and the x factors like VD Bijl, who was better in every way we can measure with both bat and ball?

Or that a guy with 23? tests to his name is a lock?

Devil's advocate here. No way in hell I would leave any of them out. But I can see the argument against donald (slightly better bowler than pollock and way worse bat, and an even more tenuous argument vs Procter). Or G Pollock... even though anyone making it would be very wrong.

Kallis and Steyn are locks in my book though, no matter what idiotic perspective I try and see it from.

Procter also a lock for my personal team- most valuable player for RSA specifically. But fair play to anyone leaving him out, I wont argue with his exclusion, just with anyone disputing his quality, or more specifically his value.

ABDV is a lock too

As a bat or a keeper? I can some merit in both (particularly keeper, where he gets into my side), but lock is a big call

 

[Slifer]

Anderson in England is one of the deadliest bowlers game has seen.. He is even level above Broad in those conditions because of his ability to get prodigious swing IMO.

He has to be picked in All time English Xi. I find it quite bizarre that usually that's not the case.

Because in an atg team you want to pick bowlers who've done well overseas as well. And quite frankly, Anderson is not that effective outside of England. Coming up against atg away, he'll probably do even worse.

 

[Red]

Do you really think 3 right arm quicks are locks when you have 2 ATG right arm quicks who also can bat in the wings, l

Kallis would be a lock in a SA ATG XI even if he'd never taken a wicket in his career.

 

[Red]

Anderson in England is one of the deadliest bowlers game has seen.. He is even level above Broad in those conditions because of his ability to get prodigious swing IMO.

He has to be picked in All time English Xi. I find it quite bizarre that usually that's not the case.

It's not even true that he was "one of the deadliest bowlers in the game" in England. He was very good in England, but plenty of visiting quicks have played a lot of tests there, and taken between 50-100 wickets there, at a far superior click to Anderson. Guys like Lillee, McGrath, Alderman, Ambrose, Holding and Marshall fit this category, by a fair statistical margin. Hadlee thereabouts also.

Even amongst his own countrymen, in England, you could argue that Trueman, Bedser, Willis, Tate and Statham all have equal or better records in England. That's before you even consider early era guys like SF Barnes or Tate, or someone like Larwood.

Anderson should be respected for the durability he's shown, and he is an immensely skillful bowler in conditions that suit, but IMO he isn't anywhere near a lock for an England all time XI. His record in England is good, but not as good as a few others, and overseas he really hasn't been what you'd consider an ATG (who can adapt to most conditions).

 

[ataraxia]

Richards, Kallis, G Pollock, Procter, Steyn are all locks. And Procter did prove himself with the ball against Australia. And his FC figures most certainly back that up.

 

[Red]

B. Richards
G. Smith *
J. Kallis
G. Pollock
AB. DeVilliers +
A. Faulkner
M. Procter
S. Pollock
H. Tayfield
D. Steyn
A. Donald

You could argue a few things, but IMO this team is right.

 

[Coronis]

B. Richards
G. Smith *
J. Kallis
G. Pollock
AB. DeVilliers +
A. Faulkner
M. Procter
S. Pollock
H. Tayfield
D. Steyn
A. Donald

You could argue a few things, but IMO this team is right.

The only things I might argue are dropping Faulkner for another specialist bat, and heavily considering Mitchell to open.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Anderson in England is one of the deadliest bowlers game has seen.. He is even level above Broad in those conditions because of his ability to get prodigious swing IMO.

He has to be picked in All time English Xi. I find it quite bizarre that usually that's not the case.

Probably because you don't pick an ATG team based purely on their performance on one small island

 

[Bolo.]

Kallis would be a lock in a SA ATG XI even if he'd never taken a wicket in his career.

Agreed.

Devils advocate and all, plus the fact that his presence as an additional quick makes the team harder to pick. He would be a hell of an asset as a 5th bowler for pretty much any team not named west indies, but his bowling for RSA as a 7th bowler in your team is pretty much superfluous.

 

[ataraxia]

B. Richards
G. Smith *
J. Kallis
G. Pollock
AB. DeVilliers +
A. Faulkner
M. Procter
S. Pollock
H. Tayfield
D. Steyn
A. Donald

You could argue a few things, but IMO this team is right.

I don't think there's a need for 6 proper bowlers. Replace S. Pollock with Amla or Nourse.

 

[Chrish]

It's not even true that he was "one of the deadliest bowlers in the game" in England. He was very good in England, but plenty of visiting quicks have played a lot of tests there, and taken between 50-100 wickets there, at a far superior click to Anderson. Guys like Lillee, McGrath, Alderman, Ambrose, Holding and Marshall fit this category, by a fair statistical margin. Hadlee thereabouts also.

Even amongst his own countrymen, in England, you could argue that Trueman, Bedser, Willis, Tate and Statham all have equal or better records in England. That's before you even consider early era guys like SF Barnes or Tate, or someone like Larwood.

Anderson should be respected for the durability he's shown, and he is an immensely skillful bowler in conditions that suit, but IMO he isn't anywhere near a lock for an England all time XI. His record in England is good, but not as good as a few others, and overseas he really hasn't been what you'd consider an ATG (who can adapt to most conditions).

Fair enough. Still disagree with the bold part. Averaging around 23 with SR of 49 over such a long career definitely identifies as a dangerous bowler IMO. And it's not just about numbers. Few if any bowlers that I have seen are able to swing the ball both ways even in English conditions with completely non-discernible action. I have seen him make complete fool of even great players. Even when not taking wicket, he was consistently threatening especially with the new ball.

Because in an atg team you want to pick bowlers who've done well overseas as well. And quite frankly, Anderson is not that effective outside of England. Coming up against atg away, he'll probably do even worse.

Yeah but England hasn't produced that many ATG all-conditions bowlers. Almost, none of them have Marshall-Mcgrath like records. Only Trueman comes close.

Probably because you don't pick an ATG team based purely on their performance on one small island

Better than picking someone like Larwood who had a great potential but wasn't fulfilled.

 

[stephen]

Dudley Nourse not getting enough love for mine. I'd at least have him over Amla who despite turning into Bradman for a short period had long periods of mediocrity. And unlike some of the others mentioned, Nourse was proven in tests.

 

[Coronis]

Better than picking someone like Larwood who had a great potential but wasn't fulfilled.

Mhm, be like picking Archer based on potential and one good series. Speaking of English bowlers, I’d rather Tyson over Larwood anyway.

 

[bagapath]

G.Smith (C)
Kirsten
Amla
G.Pollock
Kallis
ABDV
Boucher (wk)
S.Pollock
Tayfield
Steyn
Donald

 

[OverratedSanity]

Guys like Praveen Kumar and RP Singh have gone to England and looked like world beaters.

 

[ankitj]

Mitchell - Richards - Kallis - G Pollock - Nourse - de Villiers - Lindsay -Procter - Steyn - Tayfield - Donald

RSA XI is always interesting, offering lot of tradeoffs. I am sticking to above for now.

 

[ankitj]

De Villiers' test record is quite balanced.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

 

[MrPrez]

I struggle to put ABDV as the keeper in an ATG SA team since he spent most of his career not keeping in this format.

One feels that an ATG team has to have a keeper who at the very least was always a keeper.

Ftr, I rate AB's glovework, but it just doesn't feel right.

I think I posted a team here or in another thread before and it might even be different but right now I'd go:

Richards
Smith
G. Pollock
Kallis
de villiers
Nourse
Boucher
Procter
Steyn
Tayfield
Donald

It's unfortunate for Shaun Pollock as he may make every single other country's ATG team - either as the best number 8, or (in the case of India and Pakistan, who may use Dev/Akram respectively), just as a bowler.

 

[Flametree]

Richards
Mitchell
Kallis
Pollock RG
Nourse
Faulkner
Cameron *
Pollock S
Tayfield
Steyn
Donald

which gives me a second xi of

Smith
Kirsten G
Amla
Taylor H
de Villiers AB
Goddard T
Procter
Waite *
Vogler
Rabada
Adcock

 

[vcs]

SA's team balance was insanely good when AB kept around 2012-13, especially since it didn't seem to affect his output with the bat much, if at all.

Imagine having both Kallis and AB in the side. You could play a 4-man pace attack, plus a spinner (which was the only thing that team lacked), or 3 quicks + 2 spinners. So many possible combinations depending upon the surface and conditions.