Why aren't there more spinner all rounders?

[Starfighter]

This is disturbingly accurate. Genuinely wouldn't surprise me if most of the best spinners in history only resorted to it because they couldn't bowl fast, or do it well.

Bosanquet invented the googly because he decided that he wouldn't have much success as a pace bowler.

 

[Burgey]

Sir Ravindra Jadeja. One of the best in this category and perennially underrated.

His batting has improved enormously in the past few years.

 

[cnerd123]

Lol such garbage posting in this thread. Is this what CW descends into when I'm not around? Pathetic.

Spinners are the most intelligent and civilized of the lot. Why run in hard all day when you can jog in off a few steps and still take just as many wickets? Why try to impose yourself with pace and power like some kind of neanderthal when you can use your brain to deceive and outwit instead? Plus as a spinner you get to bowl a lot more overs in a day, play a lot more games (because you aren't getting injured), and win games in Days 4 and 5 when the rest of the team is tired, broken down, and wants to go home.

Fast bowlers are all bravado. Masking for insecurities the way that men who drive muscle cars or who do vanity lifting do. You get the odd sophisticated individual, like a Hadlee or an Imran Khan, but by and large they're just there doing grunt work because they aren't capable of sophisticated thoughts. Planning how to get a batsman out is beyond them. They just run in hard and fling the rock like some sort of caveman and hope that it works out for them.

Swing bowlers are the happy compromise. They are intelligent and still willing to exert themselves physically. But ofcourse, if there is no swing on offer, they're even less effective than a spinner is. Atleast a spinner can use flight and changes in pace and force a mistake out of a batsman. It's nt often you see a swing bowler humble themselves into bowling slow medium change-ups to build pressure. Instead, they often try to go the bravado route, and try to crank up their pace, or hit the deck, and they usually suck at it.

Swing bowlers who bowl with pace - like Marshall, Hadlee, Imran Khan, Wasim, Waqar, Steyn, Anderson, Bumrah, etc - now those guys are legit. Brains and brawn. It's no surprise that the most dangerous bowlers in Test cricket history are men who bowl intelligent swing at 140kmph+. It's just physics. You only have so much time to react to a ball at that speed, and if it's swinging late too..gg.

And still, depsite that, the leading wicket-takers of all times are spinners. Because spinners are built for longevity. You can build your team around a Warne, Murali, Herath or Kumble and have success for decades. But if you build it around a pace attack, you'll be lucky to get 5 years. Facts. That's why that great WI team of the 70s and 80s is such an aberration, and why every team wants a spinner, if not two, in their XI.

Spinners are also the dominant force in ODI and T20 cricket atm. No getting away from that. It's because they're just so much more intelligent than a quick bowler. It's why more spin bowlers captain teams than fast bowlers too.

 

[Burgey]

***Writes email to local Chinese Consulate***

 

[vcs]

Lol such garbage posting in this thread. Is this what CW descends into when I'm not around? Pathetic.

Spinners are the most intelligent and civilized of the lot. Why run in hard all day when you can jog in off a few steps and still take just as many wickets? Why try to impose yourself with pace and power like some kind of neanderthal when you can use your brain to deceive and outwit instead? Plus as a spinner you get to bowl a lot more overs in a day, play a lot more games (because you aren't getting injured), and win games in Days 4 and 5 when the rest of the team is tired, broken down, and wants to go home.

Fast bowlers are all bravado. Masking for insecurities the way that men who drive muscle cars or who do vanity lifting do. You get the odd sophisticated individual, like a Hadlee or an Imran Khan, but by and large they're just there doing grunt work because they aren't capable of sophisticated thoughts. Planning how to get a batsman out is beyond them. They just run in hard and fling the rock like some sort of caveman and hope that it works out for them.

Swing bowlers are the happy compromise. They are intelligent and still willing to exert themselves physically. But ofcourse, if there is no swing on offer, they're even less effective than a spinner is. Atleast a spinner can use flight and changes in pace and force a mistake out of a batsman. It's nt often you see a swing bowler humble themselves into bowling slow medium change-ups to build pressure. Instead, they often try to go the bravado route, and try to crank up their pace, or hit the deck, and they usually suck at it.

Swing bowlers who bowl with pace - like Marshall, Hadlee, Imran Khan, Wasim, Waqar, Steyn, Anderson, Bumrah, etc - now those guys are legit. Brains and brawn. It's no surprise that the most dangerous bowlers in Test cricket history are men who bowl intelligent swing at 140kmph+. It's just physics. You only have so much time to react to a ball at that speed, and if it's swinging late too..gg.

And still, depsite that, the leading wicket-takers of all times are spinners. Because spinners are built for longevity. You can build your team around a Warne, Murali, Herath or Kumble and have success for decades. But if you build it around a pace attack, you'll be lucky to get 5 years. Facts. That's why that great WI team of the 70s and 80s is such an aberration, and why every team wants a spinner, if not two, in their XI.

Spinners are also the dominant force in ODI and T20 cricket atm. No getting away from that. It's because they're just so much more intelligent than a quick bowler. It's why more spin bowlers captain teams than fast bowlers too.

Ok

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

Lol such garbage posting in this thread. Is this what CW descends into when I'm not around? Pathetic.

Spinners are the most intelligent and civilized of the lot. Why run in hard all day when you can jog in off a few steps and still take just as many wickets? Why try to impose yourself with pace and power like some kind of neanderthal when you can use your brain to deceive and outwit instead? Plus as a spinner you get to bowl a lot more overs in a day, play a lot more games (because you aren't getting injured), and win games in Days 4 and 5 when the rest of the team is tired, broken down, and wants to go home.

Fast bowlers are all bravado. Masking for insecurities the way that men who drive muscle cars or who do vanity lifting do. You get the odd sophisticated individual, like a Hadlee or an Imran Khan, but by and large they're just there doing grunt work because they aren't capable of sophisticated thoughts. Planning how to get a batsman out is beyond them. They just run in hard and fling the rock like some sort of caveman and hope that it works out for them.

Swing bowlers are the happy compromise. They are intelligent and still willing to exert themselves physically. But ofcourse, if there is no swing on offer, they're even less effective than a spinner is. Atleast a spinner can use flight and changes in pace and force a mistake out of a batsman. It's nt often you see a swing bowler humble themselves into bowling slow medium change-ups to build pressure. Instead, they often try to go the bravado route, and try to crank up their pace, or hit the deck, and they usually suck at it.

Swing bowlers who bowl with pace - like Marshall, Hadlee, Imran Khan, Wasim, Waqar, Steyn, Anderson, Bumrah, etc - now those guys are legit. Brains and brawn. It's no surprise that the most dangerous bowlers in Test cricket history are men who bowl intelligent swing at 140kmph+. It's just physics. You only have so much time to react to a ball at that speed, and if it's swinging late too..gg.

And still, depsite that, the leading wicket-takers of all times are spinners. Because spinners are built for longevity. You can build your team around a Warne, Murali, Herath or Kumble and have success for decades. But if you build it around a pace attack, you'll be lucky to get 5 years. Facts. That's why that great WI team of the 70s and 80s is such an aberration, and why every team wants a spinner, if not two, in their XI.

Spinners are also the dominant force in ODI and T20 cricket atm. No getting away from that. It's because they're just so much more intelligent than a quick bowler. It's why more spin bowlers captain teams than fast bowlers too.

They can't break jaws though.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

When Anderson was actually quick he was complete garbage. The 2006/07 Ashes featured some of the worst bowling I have ever seen being produced by him, until he was dropped for Saj Mahmood who somehow managed to be even worse

 

[cnerd123]

They can't break jaws though.

You must love MMA

 

[Daemon]

They're not very fun to watch either.

Look at the unprecedented level of hype when Jofra showed up breathing fire against Australia. Meanwhile when Lyon bowled well in that first test (iirc) nobody could care less.

In this recent series against SA, everyone was drooling over how good Shami and Yadav were bowling while loling at everyone playing Piedt's bowling like throwdowns and Linde getting tonked by a tailender for 5 sixes.

I mean has anyone ever gone to Cricinfo, seen the headline "Ashwin's runs through SL middle order" and excitedly rushed to turn on their TV sets? Of course not. It may be entertaining to watch batsmen flail around like hapless imbeciles once in a while but it's multiple tiers below watching a good spell of pace bowling.

 

[Burgey]

This is the rarest of rare occasions - when CW really needs Daemon.

 

[Burgey]

Like anyone who’s ever been involved with a cricket club at a level beyond under 10s knows the feeling of disappointment when the new six-and-a-half foot tall bloke rocks up at pre season and then bowls offies. Because you know in your heart spinners aren’t all trash Blokes and players.

Whereas the unbridled boy you get when a short arse rando lobs who bowls wheels is beyond compare.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

You must love MMA

No. Not at all.

 

[ataraxia]

They're not very fun to watch either.

Look at the unprecedented level of hype when Jofra showed up breathing fire against Australia. Meanwhile when Lyon bowled well in that first test (iirc) nobody could care less.

In this recent series against SA, everyone was drooling over how good Shami and Yadav were bowling while loling at everyone playing Piedt's bowling like throwdowns and Linde getting tonked by a tailender for 5 sixes.

I mean has anyone ever gone to Cricinfo, seen the headline "Ashwin's runs through SL middle order" and excitedly rushed to turn on their TV sets? Of course not. It may be entertaining to watch batsmen flail around like hapless imbeciles once in a while but it's multiple tiers below watching a good spell of pace bowling.

Yeah that inswinger was far better than the Ball of the Century. The only reason people like quicks more is raw pace. A spinner won't bowl 155km/h; they have better, more restrictive methods.

If I had to choose between having the bowling ability of Grimmett or Hadlee, I'd choose Grimmett. Far more fun using variations to stupedify the batsman than bowling in the corridor the whole day. They are fun to watch when you actually appreciate what they are doing.

Grimmett and Hadlee are the two best players from my home country and are two favourites of mine.

 

[Prince EWS]

When Anderson was actually quick he was complete garbage. The 2006/07 Ashes featured some of the worst bowling I have ever seen being produced by him, until he was dropped for Saj Mahmood who somehow managed to be even worse

Given how often you bring up this series I can't help but feel you'd rate Anderson significantly higher if you'd actually been following his career at that point and realised how much of a weird Hail Mary selection that was after bowling coaches completely remodelled his action to avoid further injury and then he was selected before he had any success with it.

Spoiler alert: he never had any success with it and went back to something much closer to his original one, and "luckily" didn't have any of the long term injuries they suspected he might.

He was such a different bowler for that disastrous period of his career that I internally just don't give him any longevity points for it but largely ignore it. Any sort of sane player management and he just wouldn't have played at all, but I guess understandably they were willing to take the punt on a good bowler with a new action ahead of ... Saj Mahmood. When he was quick before and after this period he was plenty good but didn't play many Tests due to injury/getting flogged in the Ashes.

 

[cnerd123]

No. Not at all.

but if broken jaws is all you want to see then MMA has plenty of them.

no doubt there is a visceral thrill in watching a fast bowler in full flow. I love it too. But I find it just as engaging to watch a spinner weave his web. Cricket is the best sport on the planet because it can host both types of entertainment in the same place at the same time. You have have the physical challenge from one end, and the cerebral challenge from the other. You can see a batsman have his bravery tested and his skill challenged in the same passage of play. That's what is so fun.

Spin bowlers are just the superior breed simply because of how inherently limiting spin bowling is. Like you guys say, very few people are born with the physical gifts to bowl 140+. Very few people are born with the gifts to play it. But anyone can bowl spin, and any of us can go out there and play a spinner with no immediate physical harm to ourselves. For a spinner to dominate a game despite that, that is something extremely special. I do love watching a spinner run through a side, especially if it's not a minefield of a pitch. Watching Warne work was immensely more satisfying that watching Mitchell Johsnon work. Both equally entertaining, but in Mitch's case you knew that no matter what you did, you would never be able to emulate that. But Warne made it look like any chubby bloke with a bad hairdo could get off his couch and make these elite batsmen look like fools just with the flick of his wrist. It was real magic.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

but if broken jaws is all you want to see then MMA has plenty of them.

no doubt there is a visceral thrill in watching a fast bowler in full flow. I love it too. But I find it just as engaging to watch a spinner weave his web. Cricket is the best sport on the planet because it can host both types of entertainment in the same place at the same time. You have have the physical challenge from one end, and the cerebral challenge from the other. You can see a batsman have his bravery tested and his skill challenged in the same passage of play. That's what is so fun.

Spin bowlers are just the superior breed simply because of how inherently limiting spin bowling is. Like you guys say, very few people are born with the physical gifts to bowl 140+. Very few people are born with the gifts to play it. But anyone can bowl spin, and any of us can go out there and play a spinner with no immediate physical harm to ourselves. For a spinner to dominate a game despite that, that is something extremely special. I do love watching a spinner run through a side, especially if it's not a minefield of a pitch. Watching Warne work was immensely more satisfying that watching Mitchell Johsnon work. Both equally entertaining, but in Mitch's case you knew that no matter what you did, you would never be able to emulate that. But Warne made it look like any chubby bloke with a bad hairdo could get off his couch and make these elite batsmen look like fools just with the flick of his wrist. It was real magic.

I was referring to cricket, not MMA. Don't even know why it's brought up.

 

[Red]

The last truly exceptional spinning all rounder in world cricket was Richie Benaud. Before him it was Colin McCool.

Harsh on Mo Matthews

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Given how often you bring up this series I can't help but feel you'd rate Anderson significantly higher if you'd actually been following his career at that point and realised how much of a weird Hail Mary selection that was after bowling coaches completely remodelled his action to avoid further injury and then he was selected before he had any success with it.

Spoiler alert: he never had any success with it and went back to something much closer to his original one, and "luckily" didn't have any of the long term injuries they suspected he might.

He was such a different bowler for that disastrous period of his career that I internally just don't give him any longevity points for it but largely ignore it. Any sort of sane player management and he just wouldn't have played at all, but I guess understandably they were willing to take the punt on a good bowler with a new action ahead of ... Saj Mahmood. When he was quick before and after this period he was plenty good but didn't play many Tests due to injury/getting flogged in the Ashes.

I see your point but even if that series never happened I would still think he's vastly overrated.

Although to some extent that is definitely the fault of the English cricketing media and their continual fawning over him

 

[Prince EWS]

I see your point but even if that series never happened I would still think he's vastly overrated.

Although to some extent that is definitely the fault of the English cricketing media and their continual fawning over him

Haha yeah I think you'd think he was over-rated regardless, but I absolutely get the feeling that if it happened to some young quick Australian bowler whose career you were following you'd be all about the narrative I painted in the post above, even if just to put some nuance into your "lol over-rated hack" opinion of the guy.

 

[cpr]

***** is the hero CW needs.


I'd invite the pace bowlers to 'come at me', but most are currently in rehab for their stress fracture on their spine.