The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[bagapath]

Is it possible to create an All Round XI? So each batsman must at least be a decent bowler, each bowler must at least be a half decent bat, plus a keeper who can bat.

Kallis, Sobers, Hadlee, Imran, Gilchrist, Warne are locks. Probably Botham, Kapil too, certainly also in the reckoning.
Who opens? Who plays middle order?

Wilfred Rhodes
Vinoo Mankad
Jacques Kallis
Gary Sobers
Walter Hammond
Imran Khan
Adam Gilchrist (wk)
Shaun Pollock
Richard Hadlee
Ray Lindwall
Richie Benaud (C)

Versus

Sanath Jayasuriya
Bob Simpson
Frank Worrell (C)
Andy Flower (WK)
George Aubrey Faulkner
Tony Greig
Keith Miller
Shakib Al Hasan
Ian Botham
Kapil Dev
Wasim Akram

 

[kyear2]

In his first 50 Tests, Botham averaged 39 with the bat and scored 11 Test centuries. He also took 239 wickets at an average of 23 and took 19 five wickets.


Even Sobers or Imran were not genuine match winners with both batting and bowling at the same time for such an extended period of time.

How many of his 1st 50 tests was during the WSC period?

 

[AndrewB]

6 Tests against Australia and 3 Tests against Pakistan. (He also played 6 Tests against NZ and 4 against India, but neither of those teams were affected by WSC).

I think Logan's figures are actually for after 51 Tests (to finish the 1982 series v India), when they're basically correct except he took 231 wickets.

If you ignore the 9 Tests mentioned above, he still averaged 39 with the bat (with 9 centuries), and took 195 wickets at 23.35 (with 18 5-fors).

 

[AndrewB]

Without checking Statsguru also, I suspect Imran had a better 5 year peak than Malcolm Marshall did...

Here's a good article on it - doesn't have a very specific 5 year period (I remember reading at one point in a ~5 year or ~25-30 test period or something period he was averaging as low as 13 or 14).
https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/22507448/imran-khan

Ponting had one of the highest peaks I recall, but that average may have been boosted by general batting averages around that period (I think Smith has a similar peak average right now) - still think he probably should at least be in consideration for this team regardless, incredible player at his peak.

In Imran's peak 5 year spell as a bowler (late 1981-86), he averaged 44.96 batting and 14.24 bowling.

I'd pick Hutton at first-choice opener: from 1948/9 to 1953/4 he average 71.02.

Other batting contenders (besides those picked and Ponting) include Walcott (averaged 81 in the mid-50s) and Richards (averaged 75 in 76-81).

 

[h_hurricane]

Interesting to see the 5 year peak of Jadeja(from 2015 to now). Averages 22 with the ball and 41 with the bat. And that is like 70% of his career !

 

[h_hurricane]

And here is the 5 year trough of Botham and Imran.

Botham (1987-1992) - 21 with the bat, 55 with the ball
Imran (1971-1976) - 16 with the bat, 62 with the ball

Don't take it too seriously though.

 

[Bolo.]

Despite what averages alone suggest, Imran's 5 year peak is 'only' about as good as Botham's 5 year peak when taking into account (mostly batting) workload, which does count for a lot when looking at ARs- as meaningless as something like RPI is when looking at specialists, the fact is that sooner or later ARs crack in at least one discipline if asked to shoulder responsibility in both simultaneously.

Anyway, Imran's peak is insanely impressive, not just for his peak bowling period, but also what came after. He Bradmanned 81-91 by being 2*atgs, exceeding my personal threshold for bowling atgs by about the same margin he missed the batting cuttoff (with more or less atg averages in both). A decade is a long time to be Bradmanning it when we are seeing guys like Viv and Smith only running on about 75% for 5 years.

 

[jimmy101]

Oof, Imran had a tough initiation into the international fold.

 

[ankitj]

No wonder some like PEWS rate Imran greatest cricketer ever, ahead of even Bradman.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Imran (1971-1976) - 16 with the bat, 62 with the ball

I'd guess that he wasn't playing regularly during that time and those were his stats from a few games here and there?

Hard to imagine he would have been persisted with as a regularly with that output

 

[jimmy101]

Just did a quick statsguru search, not sure if hurricane & I are using different parameters, but for Imran during 1971 - 1976 I got... 8 Tests, 23 bat ave. 42 bowl ave.

Moderate upgrade

 

[h_hurricane]

Just did a quick statsguru search, not sure if hurricane & I are using different parameters, but for Imran during 1971 - 1976 I got... 8 Tests, 23 bat ave. 42 bowl ave.

Moderate upgrade

I took exactly the first 5 years. Which was from mid 1971 to mid 1976. He was hardly international class until this time. Around this time, he started turning the corner and the rest is history.

 

[jimmy101]

Must have had a big improvement in late '76 then.

Come to think of it 1976 is a pretty significant year in cricket. Apart from the rise of Imran, you also had the Windies toppling England at home & it was also the last year before the WSC revolution.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Just did a quick statsguru search, not sure if hurricane & I are using different parameters, but for Imran during 1971 - 1976 I got... 8 Tests, 23 bat ave. 42 bowl ave.

Moderate upgrade

Regardless of which exact period you take, it's only ~8 Tests out of his whole career. Not exactly a full 5 years of cricket which is what people are going to infer when you put a stat like that up.

edit: or only 4 Tests lol

 

[ankitj]

I took exactly the first 5 years. Which was from mid 1971 to mid 1976. He was hardly international class until this time. Around this time, he started turning the corner and the rest is history.

He played just 4 tests in exact 5 years from his debut.

 

[h_hurricane]

True. Which is why I mentioned not to take seriously. Just a fun stat

 

[Days of Grace]

Halloween coming up so I’ll do my annual dead vs living match-ups

The Dead

Hobbs
Hutton
Bradman (c)
Headley
Hammond
Miller
Ames (wk)
Marshall
Trueman
O’Reilly
Barnes

Allrounders seem to have longevity. Miller seems to be the only one out of what I consider to be the top 10 or 12. Maybe Tony Grieg or Albie Faulkner at a push.

The Living

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Smith
Tendulkar
Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist (wk)
Imran Khan (c)
Hadlee
Muralitharan
McGrath

It’s close. The dead have the greatest batsman and arguably the greatest fast bowler in Marshall (although Fred may have something to say about that). The living bat deeper and have by far the better keeper batsman.

Would you make any changes? Barry Richards for Sehwag perhaps?

 

[Logan]

Where would you guys rank Fred Trueman among all time great bowlers? 307 wickets at an average of 21 and SR of 47 is very impressive.

 

[Days of Grace]

He’s JUST below the very best for me. If he has played as often as he was available he would be right amongst them.

His strike-rate for that era is incredible.

 

[Starfighter]

I think he's in the top rank. His record is incomplete location wise yes but that's mostly not his fault.

Also the most attractive bowling action out of all the top-tier fast bowlers.