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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

ankitj

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
We are just extra excited with our bowling prowess and letting that cloud our judgment a bit. Anyway, I said it's tenable but not what I agree with. Pakistan ATG XI still better than India ATG XI.

More than Bumrah, it's Kohli that has lent more strength. He has made Indian ATG batting lineup as good as any other country's that doesn't have Bradman.
 

Slifer

International Captain
We are just extra excited with our bowling prowess and letting that cloud our judgment a bit. Anyway, I said it's tenable but not what I agree with. Pakistan ATG XI still better than India ATG XI.

More than Bumrah, it's Kohli that has lent more strength. He has made Indian ATG batting lineup as good as any other country's that doesn't have Bradman.
Fair enough. Kohli is a legit player and strengthens an already outstanding Indian batting lineup.
 

stephen

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Basically this generation of Indian quicks just need to keep performing for another couple of years to all make the Indian side ahead of all other quicks except Kapil.

As far as ATG sides go, picking anyone over Gilchrist is highly contentious. He was good enough as a keeper and way better than the rest as a batsman. And good enough as a keeper is usually enough. Keeping skilled are asymptotic - the value of a better keeper is diminished the closer you get to the perfect keeper. What is the difference between one dropped catch every five matches as opposed to even seven matches?

The only two locks IMO in an ATG XI are Bradman and Gilchrist. Smith looks on his way there too but let's give him a bit longer.

Marshall is the closest fast bowler, though McGrath and Steyn aren't that far behind.

There's realistically only two choices for spinner.

The difference between the Aus ATG XI and other teams is that it contains the only two locks and has players pushing for every other position (barring *maybe* the openers).

WI, England and SA are missing a top tier spinner, India are missing a bowling attack away from home, Pakistan don't have the batsmen and New Zealand and Sri Lanka don't have the depth.

Having said that, one of the beautiful things about cricket is that you can have all the talent in the world and still not succeed. I remember seeing a first class batting lineup batting card from the 80s where a batting lineup that contained Kepler Wessels, Greg Richie, Allan Border and Greg Chappell get dismissed for less that 100.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...tralia-vs-queensland-sheffield-shield-1982-83
 
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CricAddict

International Coach
I'd really like to know what india has done recently that have shot them past their next door neighbors??
Who in this thread said that India have shot past Pakistan? We are just saying that it could potentially happen in future if the current pace attack continues to do well.
 

CricAddict

International Coach
The Indian batting line-up is very strong with the emergence of Kohli. On par with England and a Bradman less Australia. But the totally weak bowling line-up takes away all of that advantage. Sehwag in tests is a great player.
 

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
I'd really like to know what india has done recently that have shot them past their next door neighbors?? None of the current indian bowlers are world beating atgs. Bumrah has done excellent so far but really 12 tests??!! The rest have done well but overall nothing on Wasim and co. Jadeja and ashwin are legit but more so at home than anything else, which for an indian spinner is nothing new.

Ranking the top 10 india/Pakistan batsmen and bowlers:

Sachin
Gavaskar
Dravid
Kohli
Javed
Younis
Inzi
Yousuff
Sehwag
Saeed

Imran
Wasim
Waqar
Fazal
Ashwin
Dev
Kumble
Shoaib
Saqlain
Jadeja/Chandra ??
Both lineups about right with some arguable swaps here and there.
Pujara, Laxman and Hanif are better than Saeed imho.
 

Slifer

International Captain
Basically this generation of Indian quicks just need to keep performing for another couple of years to all make the Indian side ahead of all other quicks except Kapil.

As far as ATG sides go, picking anyone over Gilchrist is highly contentious. He was good enough as a keeper and way better than the rest as a batsman. And good enough as a keeper is usually enough. Keeping skilled are asymptotic - the value of a better keeper is diminished the closer you get to the perfect keeper. What is the difference between one dropped catch every five matches as opposed to even seven matches?

The only two locks IMO in an ATG XI are Bradman and Gilchrist. Smith looks on his way there too but let's give him a bit longer.

Marshall is the closest fast bowler, though McGrath and Steyn aren't that far behind.

There's realistically only two choices for spinner.

The difference between the Aus ATG XI and other teams is that it contains the only two locks and has players pushing for every other position (barring *maybe* the openers).

WI, England and SA are missing a top tier spinner, India are missing a bowling attack away from home, Pakistan don't have the batsmen and New Zealand and Sri Lanka don't have the depth.

Having said that, one of the beautiful things about cricket is that you can have all the talent in the world and still not succeed. I remember seeing a first class batting lineup batting card from the 80s where a batting lineup that contained Kepler Wessels, Greg Richie, Allan Border and Greg Chappell get dismissed for less that 100.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...tralia-vs-queensland-sheffield-shield-1982-83
Well I'll be blunt in saying this, Australia already has the best undisputed at xi no but if somehow smith ends his career anywhere near what he's currently doing it'll just add icing to the cake. I've always been impressed and loved Australian cricket, imo they just play the game hard and the right way. As a result, they've legitimately produced cricketers who are arguably the best at each position.

Best batsman: Bradman
2nd best batsman: Smith, Chapell definitely in the argument.
Best spinner : Warne, Grimmet, Oreilly
Allrounder: Miller
Wicket keeper: healy, talon
Keeper batsman: Gilchrist
Fast bowler: Lillee, McGrath
Left armer: Davidson

Like you said with the exception of openers, Australia have all bases covered. And even where openers are concerned only the likes of England's big 3 and Gavaskar are ahead of Simpson, Lawry, Ponsford etc.
 

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
If we look at the win loss ratio in the last 50 years (when 90% of Indian and Pakistani players vying for a spot in their ATG teams had their careers), India has a better win loss ratio than Pakistan.

Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

Not that it is the be all and end all of this debate, but just an interesting observation. What it also tells is Pakistan were a less mediocre team than India in their early test cricket years.
 

_00_deathscar

International Regular
I don't think India's ATG XI has shot past Pakistan's ATG XI - nowhere close to it. At this point in time, despite Pakistan's batting not being their strength, I'd have the Pakistan ATG XI over the India ATG XI.

To win tests, it doesn't matter what your batsmen do (and India has an ATG XI batting line up that is arguably better than anyone else except Australia's), you need a bowling attack to take 20 wickets, which we have failed to do on a regular basis up until about 3 or so years back - it remains to be seen how long this current Indian outfit can do it for, and if they can do it consistently, specifically away from home (in fact it's our batting that's let us down of late, with the exception of the Sam Curran horror series where we couldn't get him out).

All we're saying is that if this current bowling outfit can continue to do the business away from home (and as established, they're close to, if not already THE, one the best teams at home - EVER), then it doesn't matter that the name in the ATG XI are unfancied folks like Ishant Sharma or Mohammed Shami and not ATG XI contenders like Wasim/Imran/Waqar, because if they're being spearheaded by Bumrah (assuming he continues on this trajectory), and supplemented by Ashwin and Jadeja who also bring batting to the fore, then 20 wickets are 20 wickets.
 

srbhkshk

International Captain
If we look at the win loss ratio in the last 50 years (when 90% of Indian and Pakistani players vying for a spot in their ATG teams had their careers), India has a better win loss ratio than Pakistan.

Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

Not that it is the be all and end all of this debate, but just an interesting observation. What it also tells is Pakistan were a less mediocre team than India in their early test cricket years.
All of India's losses from 32-47 should be applied to Pakistan as well. :p
 

_00_deathscar

International Regular
If we look at the win loss ratio in the last 50 years (when 90% of Indian and Pakistani players vying for a spot in their ATG teams had their careers), India has a better win loss ratio than Pakistan.

Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

Not that it is the be all and end all of this debate, but just an interesting observation. What it also tells is Pakistan were a less mediocre team than India in their early test cricket years.
Yes, but that is probably massively distorted by India's pretty impressive home record (as mentioned, we could probably field me as a pace bowler but have Kumble, Jadeja and Ashwin as our spin trio and win a test).

Edit: Literally just added in that filter.

Pakistan: P202 W58 L82 D62
India: P221 W48 L83 D90


Hence the point I had earlier re: India home and India away ATG XIs - which makes sense, I think. Our difference in quality home and away is so vast (definitely improved in the last 20 or so years).
 
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h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
Yes, but that is probably massively distorted by India's pretty impressive home record (as mentioned, we could probably field me as a pace bowler but have Kumble, Jadeja and Ashwin as our spin trio and win a test).

Edit: Literally just added in that filter.

Pakistan: P202 W58 L82 D62
India: P221 W48 L83 D90


Hence the point I had earlier re: India home and India away ATG XIs - which makes sense, I think. Our difference in quality home and away is so vast (definitely improved in the last 20 or so years).
Wonder how this away record would have looked 20 years back and how it would look 20 years from now.
 

vcs

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Yeah, 20 years ago they would have had a sizable gap over India in terms of historical W/L and head-to-head records. By now, India must have narrowed it down quite a bit. Probably they still hold the head-to-head advantage because of the two teams not being able to play.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Imagine if the partition hadn't happened:

Sunil Gavaskar
Saeed Anwar
Rahul Dravid
Sachin Tendulkar
Javed Miandad
MS Dhoni +
Imran Khan
Kapil Dev
Wasim Akram
Anil Kumble
Waqar Younis
 

_00_deathscar

International Regular
Imagine if the partition hadn't happened:

Sunil Gavaskar
Saeed Anwar
Rahul Dravid
Sachin Tendulkar
Javed Miandad
MS Dhoni +
Imran Khan
Kapil Dev
Wasim Akram
Anil Kumble
Waqar Younis
I'd take Sehwag over Anwar and Kohli over Miandad but yea otherwise that's about right.

Sehwag's an interesting one. In essence, he's either going to get you 190 from like 250 balls while Gavaskar holds down one end with 40 from 300, or he'll get out at 12 from 8 balls making Dravid your defacto opener.

Sehwag batted with Gambhir, who despite being decent shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as Gavaskar as far as batting ability goes - it would have been very interesting to see this very contrasting pair together...

I'd probably also get rid of Kapil, move Akram up one (bit of a long tail though I suppose - maybe counteract that with Jadeja/Ashwin instead of Kumble?), and bring in Shoaib.

That pace line up would take enough wickets at home anyway - and Ashwin and Jadeja are just as good as Kumble at home (although you'd probably need 2 spinners, drop Shoaib at home - Imran, Waqar, Wasim is plenty at home).
And again, a four pronged pace attack comes into play away so you just need Ashwin/Jadeja to hold up an end, and their batting more than makes up for that inclusion.
 
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