*Official* South Africa in India, Sep/Oct 2019

[h_hurricane]

Really !!

So there is absolutely no advantage batting first in India. at all, even stevens

So having access to the pitch which has almost no marking compared to a day and a half of sun baking down on it, bowlers and batsmen running on it.

The 2016 Eng team to tour india was much stronger than the current SA. They won the toss on 4 out of 5 tests, yet got spanked 0-4. Only victory margins would have differed if SA batted first.

 

[srbhkshk]

Really !!

So there is absolutely no advantage batting first in India. at all, even stevens

So having access to the pitch which has almost no marking compared to a day and a half of sun baking down on it, bowlers and batsmen running on it.

In this decade - India W/L while batting first - 16/2
While fielding first - 18/2

Batting first in India is not a huge advantage, the best days for batting are typically Day 2 and 3.

 

[StephenZA]

Its pretty easy to captain and bowl with a huge score on the board. It accumualtes, plays on the batsmen, can set attacking fields

Still not by that margin. We have not looked liked bowling India out once this series. No matter the pitch conditions. They have batted better, bowled better and applied themselves better. Batting first will not have made enough of a difference.

 

[vcs]

Toss plays far less of a role in India compared to some other tracks in NZ and England where it behaves like a greentop for a couple of sessions and then becomes a road.

 

[harsh.ag]

It's ridiculous that Sanjay Manjrekar continues to be the presenter at these ceremonies

 

[silentstriker]

Really !!

So there is absolutely no advantage batting first in India. at all, even stevens

So having access to the pitch which has almost no marking compared to a day and a half of sun baking down on it, bowlers and batsmen running on it.

innings and 137 runs bro

 

[Starfighter]

I think both the pro- and anti- toss effect sides build straw men out of the other side's positions. Winning the toss has been rightly considered a big advantage in conditions where the pitch has potential to deteriorate throughout the history of the game. It comes with both a psychological advantage and being able to bat without having chased the ball around for a day and a half, on a better wicket. But you've got to score the runs, and this South African side shows no indication that they're capable of doing so anyway, and in any case their bowling has been so ineffective that even if they scored 400 I think they'd still lose.

Its pretty easy to captain and bowl with a huge score on the board. It accumualtes, plays on the batsmen, can set attacking fields

Yeah, but this SA lineup are too weak in both departments to end up on he right side of that equation in India.

Toss plays far less of a role in India compared to some other tracks in NZ and England where it behaves like a greentop for a couple of sessions and then becomes a road.

In this decade - India W/L while batting first - 16/2
While fielding first - 18/2 Batting first in India is not a huge advantage, the best days for batting are typically Day 2 and 3.

Green then sudden road arguably less representative of conditions than flat gradually changing to turning. Most of what you're seeing is simply India just being much better, or the touring side being much worse, in the conditions.

The 2016 Eng team to tour india was much stronger than the current SA. They won the toss on 4 out of 5 tests, yet got spanked 0-4. Only victory margins would have differed if SA batted first.

Case in point. That 'much stronger' England team had two spinners who average well north of 30 at FC level (and Zafar Ansari. Who I actually rated. Embarrassingly) and a batting order which Root aside were simply incapable of putting up the big scores when needed. Not that strong really. How can you judge the effect of the toss on that?

Get a touring side who are well matched with India then we can talk. I don't see how India just being really ****ing good and most touring teams being crap there is an argument against the toss being an advantage. It would be silly to pretend it can avert an innings defeat of a crap team. But it's equally silly to pretend that it only confers an insignificant at best advantage when two teams are fairly evenly matched and playing in the most commonly encountered conditions.

 

[artvandalay]

Graeme Smith highlighting the problems and insecurities with SA cricket at the moment.

What'd he say? Ab and morkel retiring don't help matters really. They had at least 2 more years of cricket left.

 

[srbhkshk]

Green then sudden road arguably less representative of conditions than flat gradually changing to turning. Most of what you're seeing is simply India just being much better, or the touring side being much worse, in the conditions.

I don't disagree with that - specifically batting in the fourth innings is always a huge challenge in India, probably more than anywhere. However you can take time out of that if you make decent use of your second innings - which none of the visiting teams have managed to do but India do often , or you can utilize the first hour during the first day which is again something that India do often. With respect to the stats I showed - if Visiting teams batting second actually had a chance in India - the stats would show that, it never actually happens, rather it's just a phrase to throw around whenever India win a couple of tosses in the row.

Why it somewhat triggers me occasionally is that the reverse is never mentioned - in the away SA/Eng/Aus series India won every single match but one (Sydney - which we were gonna win if not for rain) where they won the toss, yet apparently that's not something to talk about.

 

[the big bambino]

Nobody said that. There is just not an innings and 150 run advantage, hence the results would likely have been the same.

You know if you bat first and score 400 - 450 you make up alot of that. India could still go big but the time taken could realistically give you a chance for a draw. But that's a possibility for an era now gone. There isn't a circumstance SA's current batsmen could exploit. Because they're ****. I mean De Bruyn at 3 ... or at all is an amazing predicament for any team to find themselves. Bavuma is trash. Markram coming back to the field. Elgar is nothing to worry about. QDK , ok but not as good as once promised to be. Faf - tick tock. There is the promise of a collapse a match in this SA line up and good odds for two.

Not that you're alone. Australia, England and SA have one great batsman between them. Most of the rest barely test standard. Then you realise, omg, they are the best three sides India will come up against. Imagine the pillage of the even lesser sides! Internationally speaking India's bowlers have a marginally easier job because they don't have to bowl against a side equal to their own in batting. Granted India have the advantage in spin but Maharaj has been a good performer. Is there really that much difference in class between Umesh, Ishant and Shami versus Rabada, Philander and Nortje? A large part of the reason explaining the difference between the two sets of bowlers is the class of batting they oppose. I'm also wondering if India are producing more rounded players now. Whereas SA and Australia amongst others are producing the home track bullies? Whereas India were the butt of jokes because they produced spinning pitches that flattered their slow bowlers, other countries are pampering their home town fast bowlers at the expense of their batting generally and bowlers on tour.

 

[theegyptian]

Only 3 times in the last 10 years has a team bowled first in India having won the toss. The other 48 times the team winning the toss has batted. 48:3 Bat Bowl ratio.
If the toss didn't matter wouldn't you expect a more balanced ratio between batting and bowling first? Maybe I'm showing the same biases the captains do.

Interestingly the ratios for Eng, Aus, SA are as follows in last 10 years.

Eng - 43:26
Aus - 45:10
SA - 30:19
IND - 48:3

It does get a bit predictable in India (and Australia?) with the toss. Ideally you want as much variation in the game as possible.

I can see why the Indian fans get a bit testy with this argument given their current team. The fact is that the current Indian side is miles better than all the other nations in home conditions so the toss factor can be mitigated easily for them.

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Maharaj out with a busted shoulder, George Linde called up to the squad

Don't mind Linde from what I have seen of him, ugly action but he is accurate and crafty

 

[srbhkshk]

Apparently Indian pacers average 22 this series, SA pacers average 76.

 

[Starfighter]

<text>

As far as I see it India have one big advantage, which is that their first class system with its lengthy season is still intact. Australia's and especially England's have been suborned to limited overs crap and SA has the problem of better batsmen like Roussow departing. For whatever the technical faults their players may have the Indian system does have one thing, which is that batsmen can learn to pile up massive scores with regularity. In comparison in Eng or Aus you have batsmen being selected for tests who average mid-high thirties and score four fifties for each century. This is the result of the 'natural game', limited overs, 'positive' mindset in Aus and playing in sub-optimal, shoulder season conditions in Eng. Yes you have plenty of limited-overs type, ill-disciplined Indian batsmen, and the IPL is the big thing in town, but Aus at the moment could never produce an Agarwal. We simply don't reward batsmen who score slowly or bloom late, there's too much focus on white ball u19 etc. so young players don't play grade against much more experienced players, and any batsman who gets in the international setup plays very little fc cricket even in comparison to Eng players due to white ball internationals. The quality of Indian FC cricket is lower than in Aus, Eng or SA, but it can still produce batsmen who have discipline and know how to get a big score. For whatever reason, either the ones I just explained or something else, the other countries can't.

With respect to conditions, I think there's a few factors. Firstly, in Eng, the poor scheduling means batting in damp conditions that favour neither spin nor express pace, but are hard to survive in, so batsmen never learn how to score, and genuinely fast and spin bowlers never get matches let alone learn how to bowl. In SA and Aus the pitches are better for scoring (but offset in Aus by the disdain of batting discipline) but there seems to be little variety. I can't comment too much on SA but in Aus the Shield pitches either seem to be flatish or greenish. There's hardly ever a genuinely fast, turning or inconsistent pitch. In all three of SA, Eng and Aus this is pronounced with respect to spinning pitches, hence the trouble with both playing spin and producing spinners. India probably doesn't have that great a variety, all their batsmen except Kohli were exposed by swing and seam in England in 2018, and their spin bowlers hardly set the world alight outside of Asia. But they are nigh unbeatable at home, and because they know how to score will stand a better chance in countries that produce flatter pitches like Australia than Aus or Eng would in India. I don't know that India's players are more rounded now compared to say, the mid 00's (except for having good pace bowling) but those from SA, Eng and Aus have become demonstrably less rounded, and it's making the conditions gap in Asia bigger and outside smaller. I think there's also the tactics which touring teams adopt in India especially wrt pace bowling, but I've prattled more than enough.

 

[weldone]

Hamza and Ngidi have to come in now, surely? Hamza can replace anyone between de Bruyn and Bavuma. Ngidi should have played all 3 tests tbh.

 

[StephenZA]

Maharaj out with a busted shoulder, George Linde called up to the squad

Sad for Maharaj. Not a good tour for him.

Don't mind Linde from what I have seen of him, ugly action but he is accurate and crafty

Unlikely that Linde will play? Surprised by the call up unless they want to play Piedt and Linde dropping Muthusamy?

Hamza and Ngidi have to come in now, surely? Hamza can replace anyone between de Bruyn and Bavuma. Ngidi should have played all 3 tests tbh.

Ngidi apparently struggling with his fitness. Hamza should have played the entire series.

 

[ishqiya]

As far as I see it India have one big advantage, which is that their first class system with its lengthy season is still intact. Australia's and especially England's have been suborned to limited overs crap and SA has the problem of better batsmen like Roussow departing. For whatever the technical faults their players may have the Indian system does have one thing, which is that batsmen can learn to pile up massive scores with regularity. In comparison in Eng or Aus you have batsmen being selected for tests who average mid-high thirties and score four fifties for each century. This is the result of the 'natural game', limited overs, 'positive' mindset in Aus and playing in sub-optimal, shoulder season conditions in Eng. Yes you have plenty of limited-overs type, ill-disciplined Indian batsmen, and the IPL is the big thing in town, but Aus at the moment could never produce an Agarwal. We simply don't reward batsmen who score slowly or bloom late, there's too much focus on white ball u19 etc. so young players don't play grade against much more experienced players, and any batsman who gets in the international setup plays very little fc cricket even in comparison to Eng players due to white ball internationals. The quality of Indian FC cricket is lower than in Aus, Eng or SA, but it can still produce batsmen who have discipline and know how to get a big score. For whatever reason, either the ones I just explained or something else, the other countries can't.

With respect to conditions, I think there's a few factors. Firstly, in Eng, the poor scheduling means batting in damp conditions that favour neither spin nor express pace, but are hard to survive in, so batsmen never learn how to score, and genuinely fast and spin bowlers never get matches let alone learn how to bowl. In SA and Aus the pitches are better for scoring (but offset in Aus by the disdain of batting discipline) but there seems to be little variety. I can't comment too much on SA but in Aus the Shield pitches either seem to be flatish or greenish. There's hardly ever a genuinely fast, turning or inconsistent pitch. In all three of SA, Eng and Aus this is pronounced with respect to spinning pitches, hence the trouble with both playing spin and producing spinners. India probably doesn't have that great a variety, all their batsmen except Kohli were exposed by swing and seam in England in 2018, and their spin bowlers hardly set the world alight outside of Asia. But they are nigh unbeatable at home, and because they know how to score will stand a better chance in countries that produce flatter pitches like Australia than Aus or Eng would in India. I don't know that India's players are more rounded now compared to say, the mid 00's (except for having good pace bowling) but those from SA, Eng and Aus have become demonstrably less rounded, and it's making the conditions gap in Asia bigger and outside smaller. I think there's also the tactics which touring teams adopt in India especially wrt pace bowling, but I've prattled more than enough.

indian batsmen were very good in west indies against a decent attack against which england failed.

 

[ishqiya]

For all talks of India being poor away, Ind are the only team to have an away W/L ratio greater than 1 in the last 4 years.

 

[Dendarii]

Unlikely that Linde will play? Surprised by the call up unless they want to play Piedt and Linde dropping Muthusamy?

They still need someone in the squad as backup at the very least. If Piedt were to pick up an injury right before the next test there's no way (or shouldn't be any way) they'd want to go with Muthusamy as the sole spinner.

 

[vcs]

indian batsmen were very good in west indies against a decent attack against which england failed.

I think India lost both tosses there and were sent in with conditions suiting seam bowling. They showed enough resilience to put up decent scores despite losing a few wickets early on.