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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

mr_mister

mr_mister

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
mr_mister said:
Top 10 bowlers ranked by wickets in the 4 ashes series from 1926-33

Grimmett - 70
Larwood - 64
Tate - 45
Wall - 37
White - 28
O'Reilly - 27
Geary - 23
Allen - 21
Ironmonger - 21
Hammond - 19

These same bowlers ranked by lowest averages

O'Reilly - 26.8
Larwood - 29.9
Wall - 32.2
Geary - 33.0
White - 33.1
Allen - 33.7
Ironmomger - 33.9
Tate - 36.9
Grimmett - 38.4
Hammond 46.3

And a few added names, Gregory averaged 73.3 with 6 wickets and Mailey 42.3 with 14

An easy time for bowlers it was not - yet a lot of these guys are remembered as legends - Larwood was unfortunate he played 75% of his tests in these 4 series
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And just as a contrast, the top 10 batting averages from these 4 series (min 350 runs so I can include Archie Jackson :p)

Macartney - 94.6 (473 runs)
Bradman - 87.5 (1838 runs)
Hammond - 66.0 (1651 runs)
Sutcliffe - 65.5 (1703 runs)
Duleep - 59.4 (416 runs)
Jackson - 58.3 (350 runs)
Hobbs - 51.6 (1238 runs)
Hendren - 49.5 (792 runs)
Woodfull - 48.2 (1447 runs)
Ryder - 47.1 (565 runs)

You can see nearly all the big names of the era were seeing them pretty well and making life hell for the bowlers. I can understand why Jardine did something drastic - maybe if Bradman didn't come along Woodfull might have been dumped from the captaincy after 1930 and it would have been Vic Richardson ordering Eddie Gilbert to dig them in short against Hammond in 32-33
 
Prince EWS

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
If you're going to bat Gilchrist at 8 you should really include someone at #7 who isn't significantly worse than him as a batsman.

Which not only rules out Kapil but also in my mind rules out the whole Gilchrist at 8 theme in the first place. I don't want Sobers or Kallis as the fourth bowler against a team of equivalent strength; it'd be like playing Ronnie Irani as the fourth bowler against a Test side.
 
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ataraxia

ataraxia

International Coach
Prince EWS said:
If you're going to bat Gilchrist at 8 you should really include someone at #7 who isn't significantly worse than him as a batsman.

Which not only rules out Kapil but also in my mind rules out the whole Gilchrist at 8 theme in the first place. I don't want Sobers or Kallis as the fourth bowler in a team of equivalent strength; it'd be like playing Ronnie Irani as the fourth bowler against a Test side.
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Yeah good points. Thinking of Wooley or Rhodes but I'm grasping at straws to be fair. Revised XI:

1 Hobbs
2 Grace *
3 Bradman
4 Tendulkar
5 Richards
6 Sobers
7 Gilchrist +
8 Hadlee
9 Imran
10 Wasim
11 Warne

Sobers is an okay bowler, he'll be spinning in this XI. Tendulkar and Hobbs are semi-prominent part-timers bowling at 7 and 8 so there's depth in both areas.
 
MrPrez

MrPrez

International Debutant
1. Hobbs
2. Hutton
3. Bradman
4. Tendulkar
5. Smith
6. Sobers
7. Gilchrist +
8. Hadlee
9. Marshall
10. Warne
11. McGrath

Smith has done enough to pip Viv imo.

Big call, I know, but if Smith were to suffer a career-ending injury and never play again, I'd absolutely say he was better than Viv.

It is possible that he falls off harshly in the coming years - but as it stands he's played more than enough cricket at his ridiculous average to be justified within the side.
 
srbhkshk

srbhkshk

International Captain
Milenko47 said:
From what I know of them they tended to rely on pushes in the gaps as run-scoring options. 19th century bowling was on terrible wickets often to my knowledge so good decision.

A World XI:

1 Hobbs
2 Grace *
3 Bradman
4 Tendulkar
5 Richards
6 Sobers
7 Kapil
8 Gilchrist +
9 Hadlee
10 Imran
11 Warne

#batdeep

Unhappy with including Kapil Dev, floated up Hammond, Botham, and Kallis but none of them really seem to fit. I like the idea of Gilly at 8 for real deepness in World XIs. Just a test of an XI.
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Maybe replace Kapil with Miller, that would work better imo.
 
TheJediBrah

TheJediBrah

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Prince EWS said:
If you're going to bat Gilchrist at 8 you should really include someone at #7 who isn't significantly worse than him as a batsman.

Which not only rules out Kapil but also in my mind rules out the whole Gilchrist at 8 theme in the first place. I don't want Sobers or Kallis as the fourth bowler against a team of equivalent strength; it'd be like playing Ronnie Irani as the fourth bowler against a Test side.
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Just swap Gilchrist and Kapil, simples.

(or as others have mentioned, pick someone better than Kapil who really shouldn't be in an ATG team in the first place)
 
ataraxia

ataraxia

International Coach
MrPrez said:
1. Hobbs
2. Hutton
3. Bradman
4. Tendulkar
5. Smith
6. Sobers
7. Gilchrist +
8. Hadlee
9. Marshall
10. Warne
11. McGrath

Smith has done enough to pip Viv imo.

Big call, I know, but if Smith were to suffer a career-ending injury and never play again, I'd absolutely say he was better than Viv.

It is possible that he falls off harshly in the coming years - but as it stands he's played more than enough cricket at his ridiculous average to be justified within the side.
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Sure, have Smith against England, but his record against other nations isn't good enough to get on the pedigree of Richards.
 
mr_mister

mr_mister

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Unless you open with Engineer I don't see how you fit Dev, Jadeja and a keeper in the team without wasting a spot that could go to an ATVG bat.

It's why I think Botham would never be needed in an England XI. Hammond would be more than suitable as a fifth bowler, that role doesn't need to be running through sides as its just relief for the frontliners really. Sometimes they don't even need to bowl. So instead of Beefy at 6 have a Compton, May, or Barrington

Sachin or Sehwag(if he's picked) could do a job with the ball.

No Miller in the Aus side either. Let Waugh, Chappell or Border be the 5th bowler. It's a role they filled quite often during their careers. Obviously 3-5 is now Bradman, Smith and Punter so yeah whoever bats 6 out of those 3 I mentioned can roll their arm over - if they ever even need to in the first place
 
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mr_mister

mr_mister

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
My team:

Sunny
Sehwag/Merchant
Dravid
Sachin
Kohli (yes he's done enough)
Hazare/Laxman/Azharuddin
Engineer +
Dev

9-11 can be either 2 spinners and 1 pacer in Asia or 2 pacers and 1 spinner overseas

And Jadeja isn't in that top 2 spinners nor is his batting gonna be needed at 9
 
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Slifer

Slifer

International Captain
Coronis said:
Yeah because Viv has a good all round record against all nations.
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I'd argue Smith > over viv as well. But not sure if you're being sarcastic but viv does average 40+ home and away vs all the teams he played (sub 40 vs NZ in 3 tests). I believe Smith has a similarly rounded record FWIW.
 
h_hurricane

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
A bit unconventional but another way of building an ATG indian team.

Gavaskar
Dravid
Laxman
Tendulkar
Kohli
Dhoni
Kapil
Jadeja
Ashwin
Shami
Bumrah

Dravid had good success as an opener, just that he was reluctant to open.

Laxman was a natural no.3 but didn't bat there for long because we had Dravid.

Dhoni is an absolute lock imo. No other indian wicket keeper batsman has been anywhere near as successful as him(for that matter no other sub continental wk batsman. Bear in mind that Sanga stopped being a keeper when he bacame an ATG batsman).

Kapil, Jadeja and Ashwin provide a lot of batting depth at 7,8,9.

Shami has overtaken both Zaheer and Srinath imo. Bumrah is already a top 3 all time indian bowler.
 
h_hurricane

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
mr_mister said:
Unless you open with Engineer I don't see how you fit Dev, Jadeja and a keeper in the team without wasting a spot that could go to an ATVG bat.

It's why I think Botham would never be needed in an England XI. Hammond would be more than suitable as a fifth bowler, that role doesn't need to be running through sides as its just relief for the frontliners really. Sometimes they don't even need to bowl. So instead of Beefy at 6 have a Compton, May, or Barrington

Sachin or Sehwag(if he's picked) could do a job with the ball.

No Miller in the Aus side either. Let Waugh, Chappell or Border be the 5th bowler. It's a role they filled quite often during their careers. Obviously 3-5 is now Bradman, Smith and Punter so yeah whoever bats 6 out of those 3 I mentioned can roll their arm over - if they ever even need to in the first place
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Sachin or Sehwag shouldn't touch the ball in an ATG team.That is like settling for a bullock cart when you can at least afford a moped.

Having said that, they were semi decent in the individual teams they played for.
 
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