The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Slifer]

Zaheer
Brett Lee
Stuart Broad
Srinath
Harmison
Caddick

They all belong to a family

Mixing them with

Walsh
Gillespie
S Pollock
McDermott
Ntini
Akhthar


Is not right. IMHO

With all due respect Bag, mixing Walsh and Pollock with Ntini and co is wrong as well. Walsh and Pollock are genuine greats. Not very goods greats. Afaic Walsh the bowler = Alan Border.

 

[Spark]

Ill always have a bit more respect for a player who plays on trying to to regain his form and extend his career over the hypothetical player who gets his average as high as possible and ****s off as soon as he realises he isn't at his peak.

So long as the batsman is playing at an above-replacement level of performance and contributing to his team, then his statistically less impressive period still counts as a positive to his legacy IMO. Greatness is cumulative, not averaged.

 

[Spark]

So long as the batsman is playing at an above-replacement level of performance and contributing to his team, then his statistically less impressive period still counts as a positive to his legacy IMO. Greatness is cumulative, not averaged.

I see that Cribb has liked this post, which is fitting because this is one of the most Cribb-esque posts I've ever made tbh

 

[akilana]

Everybody knew he was declining and was hitting a trough. He stayed in the side because the team needed him, regardless of what damage it did to his statistics.

Ponting could absolutely have retired in, say, 2007 with a statistical record that places him in contention for second greatest batsman of all time. And Australia would have won fewer Test matches.

For some weird reasons, this is seen as a positive to Ponting but Sachin got a lot of stick for staying on longer.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

About on a par with the King of Spain. In other words, he's not up to much.

Ok.

 

[ImpatientLime]

never get this mentality in cricket that if a player plays past his prime he ruins his legacy.

in football, no one remembers 2006 world cup ronaldo, everyone remembers 98 and 02 ronaldo and rightfully so. i will never get this obsession with picking holes in everyone bar bradmans record.

people should remember ponting at his 2006 pomp when comparing him v the best rather than his 11-12 shadow.

 

[mr_mister]

never get this mentality in cricket that if a player plays past his prime he ruins his legacy.

in football, no one remembers 2006 world cup ronaldo, everyone remembers 98 and 02 ronaldo and rightfully so. i will never get this obsession with picking holes in everyone bar bradmans record.

people should remember ponting at his 2006 pomp when comparing him v the best rather than his 11-12 shadow.

It's not hard to understand. Cricket fans are obsessed with statistics therefore that little number representing a batting average ends up becoming a pseudo rating

 

[Spark]

For some weird reasons, this is seen as a positive to Ponting but Sachin got a lot of stick for staying on longer.

Was Sachin playing above replacement level in the last year and a half of his career?

 

[TheJediBrah]

"runs above replacement level" needs to be an official stat

Sachin's would probably be negative at the end stages of his career

 

[bagapath]

With all due respect Bag, mixing Walsh and Pollock with Ntini and co is wrong as well. Walsh and Pollock are genuine greats. Not very goods greats. Afaic Walsh the bowler = Alan Border.

Slifer. Am fine with Walsh and Pollock being above Ntini and co. Automatically that creates further layers between Walsh and Zaheer which was my point.

But

Border the batsman = Ambrose the bowler

I'll fight for this till death if needed




In the Walsh - Pollock family, Botham and Kapil can play the bookends. Botham-Walsh-Pollock-Kapil feels right for me.

 

[h_hurricane]

Neither Botham or Kapil belong to the Walsh-Pollock family as pure bowlers. As overall cricketers, certainly yes. All 4 are bonafide ATGs.

 

[mr_mister]

For some weird reasons, this is seen as a positive to Ponting but Sachin got a lot of stick for staying on longer.

Because of the milestones he was clearly hanging around for. Retiring exactly on 200 tests and 100 international centuries makes it look like that's all he gave a crap about by the end

 

[OverratedSanity]

Was Sachin playing above replacement level in the last year and a half of his career?

Probably. Tendulkar had 2 very poor series at home vs Eng and NZ. Apart from that, his returns were mostly just middling but not woeful and its tough to argue the next batsman in line for India would've done any better in most of those series.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Because of the milestones he was clearly hanging around for. Retiring exactly on 200 tests and 100 international centuries makes it look like that's all he gave a crap about by the end

Tendulkar played tests for almost a year after he got the hundredth ton. And I don't think the 200 test milestone is something even someone like him (ie) someone who clearly valued stats, would care about. The more likely reason is that he genuinely thought he could get back to some degree of form.

And look, who can blame him. The guy was written off by a huge number of people back in 2004-05 when his form took a nosedive and people were calling for him to retire and not be selfish. Instead he made everyone look silly by becoming the best batsman in the world again. He just believed he could do it again. He failed of course, but that's not the point.

 

[vcs]

Probably. Tendulkar had 2 very poor series at home vs Eng and NZ. Apart from that, his returns were mostly just middling but not woeful and its tough to argue the next batsman in line for India would've done any better in most of those series.

He looked bad throughout 2012-13, getting bowled all the time.

We played much better cricket in the very next series after he retired (SA away). It was as if a burden had been lifted and the new era had officially started.

 

[OverratedSanity]

He looked bad throughout 2012-13, getting bowled all the time.

We played much better cricket in the very next series after he retired (SA away). It was as if a burden had been lifted and the new era had officially started.

That's mostly just the England and NZ series where I said he was terrible.

 

[Slifer]

Slifer. Am fine with Walsh and Pollock being above Ntini and co. Automatically that creates further layers between Walsh and Zaheer which was my point.

But

Border the batsman = Ambrose the bowler

I'll fight for this till death if needed




In the Walsh - Pollock family, Botham and Kapil can play the bookends. Botham-Walsh-Pollock-Kapil feels right for me.

You can fight til death all you want but Ambrose is easily a top 10 greatest fast bowler. Alan Border is not that as far as batsmen are concerned. Walsh is comfortably a greater bowler than Botham or Kapil, it's not close. Statistically, there isnt much to choose between a Wasim akram and Walsh. The only real hole in Walsh's resume, is his away record to Australia. That's it. Afaic, Walsh is closer to the Wasim and Co's level of greatness than the Kapil level of good bowlers. I don't know you people keep insulting great players like Walsh and Pollock by lumping them in with the likes of Kapil or ntini or whoever....

 

[mr_mister]

Yeah, Walsh on paper(stats) from memory and from all accounts from his peers was an absolute ATG. He must lose points in the eyes of some because Ambrose was slightly but clearly better, and since they were such similar bowlers in a very famous decade long new ball partnership maybe that direct comparison hurts him more than it should.

His record in Australia also no doubt hurt by touring for an excruciating 5 test series as a geriatric in 2000/01 (He was 38 years old!) against arguably the greatest batting lineup in history with absolute scrubs as bowling support. And he shouldered a massive load, bowling 200 overs when nobody else on his side bowled more than 140. A lot working against him there. Pity Ambrose wasn't up for one final tour.

 

[trundler]

Walsh-Pollock-Fazal-Hall-Adcock-Statham

 

[Burgey]

You can fight til death all you want but Ambrose is easily a top 10 greatest fast bowler. Alan Border is not that as far as batsmen are concerned. Walsh is comfortably a greater bowler than Botham or Kapil, it's not close. Statistically, there isnt much to choose between a Wasim akram and Walsh. The only real hole in Walsh's resume, is his away record to Australia. That's it. Afaic, Walsh is closer to the Wasim and Co's level of greatness than the Kapil level of good bowlers. I don't know you people keep insulting great players like Walsh and Pollock by lumping them in with the likes of Kapil or ntini or whoever....

U ****ing wot m8?