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The great 1980s all rounders

Burgey

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The funny thing about all this ATG talk this thread has turned into, is that none of the fab 4 are likely to make a World ATG XI.

There are clearly 3 better ATG fast bowlers and 6 better ATG batsmen, of which Sobers is one to serve as the allrounder.

They will all make their countries ATG teams though, as will Miller for Aus.
Dunno. Reckon he's surplus to needs tbh. Middle order of:

Bradman
Smith
Ponting
TOTAB (c)
Gilly (+)

really doesn't need an allrounder given Gilly's prowess with the bat and an attack of:

Davo
Warne
Lillee/ Lindwall/ O'Reilly
McGrath

I suppose he could bat six in lieu of Ponting, with TOTAB moving to five, but the ATG Australian side isn't losing to anyone, whether they play four bowlers or five.
 

kyear2

International Coach
So if you agree that the gulf between their batting is larger than the difference between their bowling then the choice is simple. Instead of Hadlee you take a bowler who is close enough in bowling skill, yet a much better batsman. Ideally I'd put both Imran and Hadlee in my ATXI but if I had to put an all rounder then Imran shades it. Sir Richard will probably add more to the side than McGrath will and so I'd have Imran, Hadlee and Marshall as my 3 pacers with Warne as the spinner. This team will bat down to 11.

The idea is to strengthen the batting and bowling prowess of the team as much as possible. With Imran you get a slightly inferior bowling but a significantly better batting.
But that's where we differ. Let me explain.

1. I don't see the need to bat all the way to 11. Same way all your batsmen don't need to be able to bowl.

2. To me the argument with all things being equal go with the better batsman, doesn't quite apply here. For example, for me the 3 best fast bowlers period are Marshall, McGrath and Steyn in that order (and that's not because he is a Barbadian), so ideally that's who one would choose for a hypothetical situation. So to include Hadlee, who I have between anywhere between 4th and at worst 7th, at the expense of the 2nd best bowler, who some may see as a liability with the bat, I'm already weakening the attack, even if a little. The fact that Hadlee and McGrath are some what similar eases that pain a bit though.
Now say that you also then want to replace Steyn the 3rd best bowler, who isn't a rabbit by any means, for someone outside my top 10 and for arguments sake 15th that weakening my bowling even further to add to the chances of at best drawing the game?

Yes there are times a tail saves a team, the other 80 percent of the time, it doesn't, and you weakening the bowling. And let's be honest, a batting lineup of Hadlee, Marshall, Warne & Steyn isn't a batting liability and is a potent attack.

3. This is nit a personal attack on Imran or all-rounders. It's just that from watching the game of cricket all of my 40 plus years, it's become apparent that winning isn't exactly tied to having great all rounders. The 2 greatest teams in history had Warne and Marshall manning the no. 8 position and they performed quite admirable and sufficiently, though they both possessed more batting talent than they displayed at times. And if it's one thing that I've learned from watching American football is that you look at what the great teams do and you try to emulate it. And as most of you would know, I believe it's far more important to have a strong cordon than it is to bat to 11 and that its much more associated with winning teams. But we wouldn't venture there now.
 

the big bambino

International Captain
And where did I say he wasn't. I had a subsequent post where I placed him just outside of the top 10 and definitely in the top 20 bowlers of all time.

Where those numbers though definitely doesn't place him is the discussion as the greatest fast bowler ever or in the very top tier of greats, though I would give you the 25 vs the W.I as not being horrible. Though TBH we only had 1 ATG batsman, one ATG opener and 1 other great / above average batsman who retired to give Viv the captaincy, the batting wasn't the reason we were the best. So from that perspective those numbers just doesn't cut it. Compare them to some of the aforementioned bowlers.
You seem to have two levels that I just don't recognise. ATG and top tier. Its a meaningless distinction. The WI batting was just fine in Imran's time. Success in Australia, until recently, fairly difficult to achieve. 24 ave in England magnificent. His record on unresponsive Indian pitches impressive. He succeeded everywhere he went. He deserves to be rated amongst the best even if that means getting into the platinum lounge of your top tier section.
 

aussie tragic

International Captain
Dunno. Reckon he's surplus to needs tbh. Middle order of:

Bradman
Smith
Ponting
TOTAB (c)
Gilly (+)

really doesn't need an allrounder given Gilly's prowess with the bat and an attack of:

Davo
Warne
Lillee/ Lindwall/ O'Reilly
McGrath

I suppose he could bat six in lieu of Ponting, with TOTAB moving to five, but the ATG Australian side isn't losing to anyone, whether they play four bowlers or five.
I prefer to have both Warne and O'Reilly in my XI, so need Miller at 6/7 to bowl pace with Lillee and McGrath
 

mr_mister

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Wouldn't Gillys prowess with the bat mean you can have one less specialist bat and pop in Miller?
 

Slifer

International Captain
Dunno. Reckon he's surplus to needs tbh. Middle order of:

Bradman
Smith
Ponting
TOTAB (c)
Gilly (+)

really doesn't need an allrounder given Gilly's prowess with the bat and an attack of:

Davo
Warne
Lillee/ Lindwall/ O'Reilly
McGrath

I suppose he could bat six in lieu of Ponting, with TOTAB moving to five, but the ATG Australian side isn't losing to anyone, whether they play four bowlers or five.
Australia would be 50-50 or so vs an atg WI or india away imo. Everyone else they'd probably smoke though. And FWIW why is G Chappell not being considered for an oz middle order??
 

TheJediBrah

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Wouldn't Gillys prowess with the bat mean you can have one less specialist bat and pop in Miller?
Maybe a bit of horses for courses, depending on the wicket and location of the game. Pop Miller in if you want a 5th bowler. You shouldn't need 2 spinners in a lot of places either.
 

kyear2

International Coach
You seem to have two levels that I just don't recognise. ATG and top tier. Its a meaningless distinction. The WI batting was just fine in Imran's time. Success in Australia, until recently, fairly difficult to achieve. 24 ave in England magnificent. His record on unresponsive Indian pitches impressive. He succeeded everywhere he went. He deserves to be rated amongst the best even if that means getting into the platinum lounge of your top tier section.
You are deliberately trying not to get the point. Just to say though an average of 28 in Australia and India is not excelling everywhere. And the point is that besides a decent average in the W. I and in comparison with some of the other bowlers of his era he underperformed away from home.
 

Red

The normal awards that everyone else has
Dunno. Reckon he's surplus to needs tbh. Middle order of:

Bradman
Smith
Ponting
TOTAB (c)
Gilly (+)

really doesn't need an allrounder given Gilly's prowess with the bat and an attack of:

Davo
Warne
Lillee/ Lindwall/ O'Reilly
McGrath

I suppose he could bat six in lieu of Ponting, with TOTAB moving to five, but the ATG Australian side isn't losing to anyone, whether they play four bowlers or five.
I've always liked how his inclusion at 5 means you can play 2 spinners and still have 3 quicks.

Morris
Trumper
Bradman
GChappell
Miller
Harvey/Border
Gilchrist
Warne
Lindwall/Lillee/Davidson
OReilly
McGrath

If you don't want two spinners:

Morris
Trumper
Bradman
GChappell
Smith/Ponting/McCabe
Harvey/Border
Gilchrist
Warne
Lindwall/Davidson
Lillee
McGrath
 
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kyear2

International Coach
Australia would be 50-50 or so vs an atg WI or india away imo. Everyone else they'd probably smoke though. And FWIW why is G Chappell not being considered for an oz middle order??
If you had said W.I or S.A. but India? And I think Australia would have a slight advantage over both, if they chose the right team.
 

TheJediBrah

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If you had said W.I or S.A. but India? And I think Australia would have a slight advantage over both, if they chose the right team.
Probably not in India though. Especially if Warne is the spinner.

Clearly the Aus team is far superior, but you have to take conditions into account, which I think was Slifer's point
 

Bahnz

Hall of Fame Member
The funny thing about all this ATG talk this thread has turned into, is that none of the fab 4 are likely to make a World ATG XI.

There are clearly 3 better ATG fast bowlers and 6 better ATG batsmen, of which Sobers is one to serve as the allrounder.

They will all make their countries ATG teams though, as will Miller for Aus.
I do think that in spite of the kyear bashing, Hadlee probably would be the closest of the 4 to making the ATXI for precisely the reasons that kyear states.
 

TheJediBrah

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I do think that in spite of the kyear bashing, Hadlee probably would be the closest of the 4 to making the ATXI for precisely the reasons that kyear states.
Yes without a doubt he is. But also for the reasons why he is not quite at home in this very discussion, because he's at ATG bowler and handy tail-ender more than a genuine all-rounder.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
I do think that in spite of the kyear bashing, Hadlee probably would be the closest of the 4 to making the ATXI for precisely the reasons that kyear states.


But that's the point, hadlee was the best bowler among all of them. Not the best all rounder.

Edit tjb already stated that.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
But that's where we differ. Let me explain.

1. I don't see the need to bat all the way to 11. Same way all your batsmen don't need to be able to bowl.

2. To me the argument with all things being equal go with the better batsman, doesn't quite apply here. For example, for me the 3 best fast bowlers period are Marshall, McGrath and Steyn in that order (and that's not because he is a Barbadian), so ideally that's who one would choose for a hypothetical situation. So to include Hadlee, who I have between anywhere between 4th and at worst 7th, at the expense of the 2nd best bowler, who some may see as a liability with the bat, I'm already weakening the attack, even if a little. The fact that Hadlee and McGrath are some what similar eases that pain a bit though.
Now say that you also then want to replace Steyn the 3rd best bowler, who isn't a rabbit by any means, for someone outside my top 10 and for arguments sake 15th that weakening my bowling even further to add to the chances of at best drawing the game?

Yes there are times a tail saves a team, the other 80 percent of the time, it doesn't, and you weakening the bowling. And let's be honest, a batting lineup of Hadlee, Marshall, Warne & Steyn isn't a batting liability and is a potent attack.

3. This is nit a personal attack on Imran or all-rounders. It's just that from watching the game of cricket all of my 40 plus years, it's become apparent that winning isn't exactly tied to having great all rounders. The 2 greatest teams in history had Warne and Marshall manning the no. 8 position and they performed quite admirable and sufficiently, though they both possessed more batting talent than they displayed at times. And if it's one thing that I've learned from watching American football is that you look at what the great teams do and you try to emulate it. And as most of you would know, I believe it's far more important to have a strong cordon than it is to bat to 11 and that its much more associated with winning teams. But we wouldn't venture there now.
Finally I see some reasoning where you haven't posted **** about whoever cricketer you're trying to bring down.

Will probably respond to this later.
 

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
Probably not in India though. Especially if Warne is the spinner.

Clearly the Aus team is far superior, but you have to take conditions into account, which I think was Slifer's point
Do think so as well. It is difficult to think that the same guys who got smoked in India would smoke them in an ATG team. Lyon or O'Keefe would be better choices than Warne in India. Horses for courses.

Edit: How can I miss Benaud ? He should be an automatic choice for an ATG XI in India let alone an Aussie team.
 
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kyear2

International Coach
Finally I see some reasoning where you haven't posted **** about whoever cricketer you're trying to bring down.

Will probably respond to this later.
I never posted ****, you just didn't like what I posted. And that's because anytime anyone mentions Imran's name in anything but glowing terms you take personal offence.
 

Burgey

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Australia would be 50-50 or so vs an atg WI or india away imo. Everyone else they'd probably smoke though. And FWIW why is G Chappell not being considered for an oz middle order??
Picked and chose too many tours for my liking, whereas other candidates for his spot didn't. Obviously well in contention though.
 

smash84

The Tiger King
I never posted ****, you just didn't like what I posted. And that's because anytime anyone mentions Imran's name in anything but glowing terms you take personal offence.
Not really. Tear down Imran's record where it's bad. I don't mind at all. But trying to bring him down using ball tampering, home umpiring etc is just, well, pathetic.
 

Burgey

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But he was a notorious ball tamperer mate. Ask anyone who played with him at NSW in the mid-80s. Bloke was a master of the dark arts.
 
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