The great 1980s all rounders

[aussie tragic]

By the way, Botham was never "more of a batsman". Let us not make him into someone who was good enough to bat in the top 5 or something. Never averaged 40+ with the bat at any time of his career iirc.

For info, Botham averaged 55.62 at one point and still had a 40.48 batting average after his 25th Test.

 

[Coronis]

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

For anyone else interested. Peaks should be taken into consideration, but with any player you cant just ignore parts of his career.

 

[the big bambino]

Yeah, if wickets per match is ignored, these guys are all good bowlers.

Asif Iqbal - Check Asif Iqbal's News, Career, Age, Rankings, Stats | ESPNcricinfo.com

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This is right up there with Jadeja is better than Lillee because Lillee bowled in the WI once with a busted back.

Just looking quickly through Miller's matches v England there are 4 matches where he only bowled 14 overs. Another in Sydney in 46/47 where the spinners did the bowling and took the wickets. I'd imagine that's part of the reason behind this wpm business. Australia had great options back then and Miller played as a batsman just as much as a bowler. Against Eng again he spent most of his time in the top six and sometimes at three. In short he was a batsmen too. No captain is going to over bowl one of their best batsmen (even if he is also one of the side's best bowlers) if he can be used judiciously and the opposition is still getting bowled out by the others.

That's the explanation behind the wpm. He was effectively playing as a batsman. In fact based on this I'd say he'd nudge Imran. WPM is just a bit of flotsam for some desperadoes to cling.

 

[Bahnz]

The problem with Imran as an all rounder was that he was never world class at both disciplines at the same time. Miller was. That's all I meant. Both Hadlee and Imran were better bowlers than Miller for a significant portion of their careers and Imran became a better batsman than Miller but not at the same time.

It's splitting hairs though really. Peak Botham was Miller's best competition for "genuine all rounder".

And for those saying Miller's bowling workload wasn't high enough - you don't get given the new ball without being seen as one of the leaders of the attack.

It's extraordinary to think that Miller played in 31 wins in 55 tests and only lost 9. That's an absurd record.

Eh, I mean he only became a glorified batsman in the last couple of years of his career. Throughout most of the 80's he was still averaging nearly 5 wickets a game and 40+ with the bat simultaneously. And yeah, I get that I get that Imran spent a lot of that time batting at 8, and consequently got quite a few not outs to his name, but that's bloody ridiculous all the same.

 

[sunilz]

This is Botham's record in 28 test matches against top 2 test team of 80s
All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

Earlier i used to think that to be regarded as ATG you need to perform against best teams of your time . But clearly , I was wrong . Now we may as well call Sehwag , Jayawardene, Inzamam , Hayden , Warner ATG players.

 

[the big bambino]

This is Botham's record in 28 test matches against top 2 test team of 80s
All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

Earlier i used to think that to be regarded as ATG you need to perform against best teams of your time . But clearly , I was wrong . Now we may as well call Sehwag , Jayawardene, Inzamam , Hayden , Warner ATG players.

Again.

 

[thierry henry]

This is Botham's record in 28 test matches against top 2 test team of 80s

WI and NZ?

 

[stephen]

This is Botham's record in 28 test matches against top 2 test team of 80s
All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

Earlier i used to think that to be regarded as ATG you need to perform against best teams of your time . But clearly , I was wrong . Now we may as well call Sehwag , Jayawardene, Inzamam , Hayden , Warner ATG players.

ATG is as subjective a measure as anything else. Botham was pretty special and only a fool would debate that.

 

[sunilz]

WI and NZ?

Pak were the 2nd best team of 80s.

 

[sunilz]

ATG is as subjective a measure as anything else. Botham was pretty special and only a fool would debate that.

Sehwag, Warner, Ashwin, Jadeja,Laxman , Anderson all are special players . We don't consider them ATG . There should be no exception for Botham .

 

[stephen]

Also, Pakistan had the second highest w/l ratio in the 80s but I wouldn't say they were clearly the second best side.

New Zealand, England and Australia all had very similar away records to Pakistan at the time and I daresay that non- neutral umpires had a big say in Pakistan's home record.

The Windies were so far ahead of everyone else in the era it basically doesn't matter who was second best, because by comparison to the Windies all the other teams were garbage.

So cherry picking Pakistan for Botham is a bit silly. Might as well include Australia and New Zealand as well while you're at it.

 

[vcs]

I wasn't too young to be watching then but I think Pakistan were clearly stronger than the others bar WI by the late '80s. Wasn't there an epic series in the WI where they came very close to beating them?

 

[sunilz]

Also, Pakistan had the second highest w/l ratio in the 80s but I wouldn't say they were clearly the second best side.

New Zealand, England and Australia all had very similar away records to Pakistan at the time and I daresay that non- neutral umpires had a big say in Pakistan's home record.

The Windies were so far ahead of everyone else in the era it basically doesn't matter who was second best, because by comparison to the Windies all the other teams were garbage.

So cherry picking Pakistan for Botham is a bit silly. Might as well include Australia and New Zealand as well while you're at it.

Considering the fact that Pak didn't lose 3 consecutive test series against WI in 80s , that clearly makes them 2nd best side of 80s imo.

 

[h_hurricane]

This is right up there with Jadeja is better than Lillee because Lillee bowled in the WI once with a busted back.

Just looking quickly through Miller's matches v England there are 4 matches where he only bowled 14 overs. Another in Sydney in 46/47 where the spinners did the bowling and took the wickets. I'd imagine that's part of the reason behind this wpm business. Australia had great options back then and Miller played as a batsman just as much as a bowler. Against Eng again he spent most of his time in the top six and sometimes at three. In short he was a batsmen too. No captain is going to over bowl one of their best batsmen (even if he is also one of the side's best bowlers) if he can be used judiciously and the opposition is still getting bowled out by the others.

That's the explanation behind the wpm. He was effectively playing as a batsman. In fact based on this I'd say he'd nudge Imran. WPM is just a bit of flotsam for some desperadoes to cling.

I never said wickets per match is the sole criteria, but we cannot ignore the work load and the body strain bowlers go through while bowling more overs per match. As I said earlier, Miller was a better bowler than Kapil and Botham. No arguments there. If we totally ignore wickets per match, Miller would be a better bowler than Akram, Younis, Lillee, Holding and many more. Was he that good ? Certainly not as a pure bowler.

I rate Miller massively high, only Sobers,Imran and Kallis ahead of him as all rounders.

Why would this turn into a Jadeja vs Lillee discussion ? Jadeja is statistically a better cricketer than Lillee though he is not a better bowler than Dennis.

 

[the big bambino]

I was just putting the reasons for his workload and wpm in context. You can see why his captains would use him modestly. I think the fact he was a batsman means he didn't have the opportunities at the bowling crease a pure bowler would have. maybe his average would have gone up but still have been impressive. Overall i rate him better than Kallis, close to Imran with Sobers the best.

 

[h_hurricane]

Also, Pakistan had the second highest w/l ratio in the 80s but I wouldn't say they were clearly the second best side.

New Zealand, England and Australia all had very similar away records to Pakistan at the time and I daresay that non- neutral umpires had a big say in Pakistan's home record.

The Windies were so far ahead of everyone else in the era it basically doesn't matter who was second best, because by comparison to the Windies all the other teams were garbage.

So cherry picking Pakistan for Botham is a bit silly. Might as well include Australia and New Zealand as well while you're at it.

If we include Australia and NZ as well ( just leaving out Ind and SL), he averages around 29 with bat and ball over 85 matches.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Earlier i used to think that to be regarded as ATG you need to perform against best teams of your time . But clearly , I was wrong . Now we may as well call Sehwag , Jayawardene, Inzamam , Hayden , Warner ATG players.

I don't see anything wrong with calling Hayden and Sehwag ATGs

I daresay that non- neutral umpires had a big say in Pakistan's home record.

Not really relevant though is it? Whether Pakistan were the 2nd best side because of biased umpires or because they genuinely were the 2nd best doesn't change how you rate players' performances against "the 2 best sides"

 

[h_hurricane]

maybe his average would have gone up but still have been impressive.

That is the whole point isn't it ? I don't think any one has a problem in thinking he would have averaged around 25 if he bowled enough to take 4 wickets per match.

 

[vcs]

Every country had biased umpires FFS, people trying to make out as if only Pakistan had them. Imran was the one who pushed for neutral umpiring.

 

[Bolo]

I'm not normally one for averages in wins to show the quality of a player, but Miller played 55 tests and won 31 of them. In those tests he took 113 of his 170 wickets and averaged under 20. He only played in 9 losses! In draws his average was 35 and he only took 33 wickets in those 15 matches.

This suggests that he was quite influential in his team's ability to win. He didn't bowl a huge amount of overs but he would come in and take important top order wickets and leave the lower order/ tail to other bowlers.

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