The great 1980s all rounders

[marc71178]

Sobers was the best all rounder, Miller the best bowling all rounder and Imran the best peaking all rounder.

3 wpm is perfectly fine for a guy who has war injuries, averages close to 20 with the ball and still finds time to average over 35 batting in the top 6.

Without his war injury I'm sure Miller would have taken more of the bowling burden but you know, Kapil had to bowl in India so that automatically makes his average worth 10 less than it was.

GTFO. To do that he'd have to have a front line bowling workload.

 

[h_hurricane]

Yeah, if wickets per match is ignored, these guys are all good bowlers.

Asif Iqbal - Check Asif Iqbal's News, Career, Age, Rankings, Stats | ESPNcricinfo.com

Mushtaq Mohammad - Check News, Career, Age, Rankings, Stats | ESPNcricinfo.com

Michael Bevan - Check Bevan's News, Career, Age, Rankings, Stats | ESPNcricinfo.com

Doug Walters - Check Walters's News, Career, Age, Rankings, Stats | ESPNcricinfo.com

 

[Dendarii]

Yeah, if wickets per match is ignored, these guys are all good bowlers.

Asif Iqbal - Check Asif Iqbal's News, Career, Age, Rankings, Stats | ESPNcricinfo.com

Mushtaq Mohammad - Check News, Career, Age, Rankings, Stats | ESPNcricinfo.com

Michael Bevan - Check Bevan's News, Career, Age, Rankings, Stats | ESPNcricinfo.com

Doug Walters - Check Walters's News, Career, Age, Rankings, Stats | ESPNcricinfo.com

This guy beats all of them.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/southafrica/content/player/44111.html

 

[h_hurricane]

This guy beats all of them.

Mark Boucher - Check Boucher's News, Career, Age, Rankings, Stats | ESPNcricinfo.com

George Lohmann would kill to have that average

 

[Red]

1.As things stand now , his WPM is not ATG category.

What are you talking about? "As things stand now"? What does that even mean?

. Miller's FC bowling record with 2.2 WPM is no better than Clive Rice's.

You clearly know how to use statsguru, but have no knowledge of the game and its history. Nor do you have any knowledge of Miller's career, and you could just read his bio on cricinfo to see what you don't even understand. He was a FC batsman (and a fkn good one), and was initially selected as a batsman in the test team. He basically became an opening bowler because they needed one, and he became one of the best.

. He might have been an ATG bowler with more work load , but that might harm his batting stats as well.

Ok. What's your point?

 

[kyear2]

If you look at his FC stats he was an ATG bat. So either you take his test stats where he was an ATG bowler or you take his FC stats where he was an ATG bat (and didn't bowl as much because of bullets lodged in his body).

It's fair to say he's at least as good as any of the 80s all rounders and probably better than all but perhaps Imran or peak Botham. His bowling was behind peak Imran and Hadlee but his batting was ahead of both. His bowling and batting were ahead of Kapil. Botham is a case of a guy who was brilliant for a while and then let himself go and became very ordinary for a long time. He is the only real true all rounder that can challenge Miller. The rest weren't good enough (Kapil in both disciplines, Hadlee as a batsman), or weren't good enough at the same time (Imran).

Peak Botham is possibly the greatest all rounder in history. But his decline counts heavily against him. Miller is second best all round. Sobers and Kallis are tilted to their batting, Hadlee and Imran to their bowling (and then batting in Imran's case).

This all come down to what you interpret an all rounder to be. Or more importantly what you expect from an all rounder. I'm personally not a fan of the true / genuine all rounder role. I prefer a genuine batsman who can throw in a few overs and act as your 5th bowler. Also a front line bowlers who can contribute with a bat a bit can also come in useful without having to weaken your attack to strengthen the tail. Marshall and Warned more than suitably filled this role for the two greatest teams in history.

My issue with the genuine all rounders (Botham / Miller etc) can be summed up from two perspectives.

From an everyday perspective, Jason Holder. He isn't good enough to be a top 6 batsman based on his batting alone and he isn't a true front line bowler either. If he bats at 6, he weakens your lineup by taking away a specialist. If he bats at 7 or 8 you probably need to then play 5 bowlers to cover your bases.

From an ATG perspective, if you are making a team to play the martians I'm not putting Miller or Botham at 6, their numbers are simply not good enough. If you play then as a bowler you are severly weakening your attack by taking out a genuine bowling ATG who can carry an attack. Give me Sobers / Kallis / Hammond in the top 6 and Hadlee at 8 to lengthen the batting.

Give me a specialist who can dabble and give results than a jack of all trades who can hurt you tram in the process. Note, not saying Miller wasn't great, just not sure where he fits into most teams.

 

[Slifer]

This all come down to what you interpret an all rounder to be. Or more importantly what you expect from an all rounder. I'm personally not a fan of the true / genuine all rounder role. I prefer a genuine batsman who can throw in a few overs and act as your 5th bowler. Also a front line bowlers who can contribute with a bat a bit can also come in useful without having to weaken your attack to strengthen the tail. Marshall and Warned more than suitably filled this role for the two greatest teams in history.

My issue with the genuine all rounders (Botham / Miller etc) can be summed up from two perspectives.

From an everyday perspective, Jason Holder. He isn't good enough to be a top 6 batsman based on his batting alone and he isn't a true front line bowler either. If he bats at 6, he weakens your lineup by taking away a specialist. If he bats at 7 or 8 you probably need to then play 5 bowlers to cover your bases.

From an ATG perspective, if you are making a team to play the martians I'm not putting Miller or Botham at 6, their numbers are simply not good enough. If you play then as a bowler you are severly weakening your attack by taking out a genuine bowling ATG who can carry an attack. Give me Sobers / Kallis / Hammond in the top 6 and Hadlee at 8 to lengthen the batting.

Give me a specialist who can dabble and give results than a jack of all trades who can hurt you tram in the process. Note, not saying Miller wasn't great, just not sure where he fits into most teams.

Awta. Miller is an atg all rounder but in an atg Aus team for example, nobody is picking him to be a front line bowler or to be a main batsman. He's not making it as a bowler ahead of : lillee, Davidson, McGrath or lindwall. Ditto the batting considering: Waugh, border, Chappell, ponting, Smith, Harvey etc. Funny enough, I do see him in many an oz at xi but that's only because of that freak of nature don bradman and that other minor freak Gilchrist. Miller's still a beast though

 

[rtramdas]

I was earlier refering to India-Windies ongoing series in which how Jadeja was benefiting in the company of a strong bowling group. All in all he took 6 wkts and averaged 30.5. Bumrah,Shami & Ishant together took 33 wkts @12.58 average. What if the other 3 bowlers averaged 38.8( Kapil's support bowling average thru out first 21823 balls) each instead of 12.58. I am sure Jadeja would be averaging
easily >50 in that case. Just briefing the practical situations of stronger support bowling group here.

 

[Burgey]

Awta. Miller is an atg all rounder but in an atg Aus team for example, nobody is picking him to be a front line bowler or to be a main batsman. He's not making it as a bowler ahead of : lillee, Davidson, McGrath or lindwall. Ditto the batting considering: Waugh, border, Chappell, ponting, Smith, Harvey etc. Funny enough, I do see him in many an oz at xi but that's only because of that freak of nature don bradman and that other minor freak Gilchrist. Miller's still a beast though

*Border.

Proper noun please. In fact, none more proper.

 

[Burgey]

Awta. Miller is an atg all rounder but in an atg Aus team for example, nobody is picking him to be a front line bowler or to be a main batsman. He's not making it as a bowler ahead of : lillee, Davidson, McGrath or lindwall. Ditto the batting considering: Waugh, border, Chappell, ponting, Smith, Harvey etc. Funny enough, I do see him in many an oz at xi but that's only because of that freak of nature don bradman and that other minor freak Gilchrist. Miller's still a beast though

My grandfather was in the army during the war with a bloke who played for NSW with Miller. Used to love catching up with him on ANZAC Day and getting some stories about him. They're all gone now, those blokes. Wish I'd recorded some of the tales at the time.

 

[marc71178]

I was earlier refering to India-Windies ongoing series in which how Jadeja was benefiting in the company of a strong bowling group. All in all he took 6 wkts and averaged 30.5. Bumrah,Shami & Ishant together took 33 wkts @12.58 average. What if the other 3 bowlers averaged 38.8( Kapil's support bowling average thru out first 21823 balls) each instead of 12.58. I am sure Jadeja would be averaging
easily >50 in that case. Just briefing the practical situations of stronger support bowling group here.

Is making up numbers linked to this so called support bowling average the new era adjusting?

 

[rtramdas]

Is making up numbers linked to this so called support bowling average the new era adjusting?

i am not making up numbers on my own. These data can be filtered out using 'espncricinfo' web site tools.

 

[aussie tragic]

Is making up numbers linked to this so called support bowling average the new era adjusting?

Yeah, maybe we should apply this theory to Allan Border from the mid 80's on. If AB had better support batsmen I'm sure he would have averaged 99.95....nope, just making up numbers based on a "what if" is rubbish...

 

[Starfighter]

You clearly know how to use statsguru, but have no knowledge of the game and its history.

I see you're new around here.

 

[stephen]

Some good points here, but disagree that Miller was the best bowling allrounder. Imran wins it clearly. Was a better bowler than Miller, though Miller was the better bat. Wickets per match is a decent indicator of workload. While Miller was clearly a better bowler and batsman than Kapil and Botham, it is not as if he was Mcgrath or Lillee level as a bowler based on that average.

The problem with Imran as an all rounder was that he was never world class at both disciplines at the same time. Miller was. That's all I meant. Both Hadlee and Imran were better bowlers than Miller for a significant portion of their careers and Imran became a better batsman than Miller but not at the same time.

It's splitting hairs though really. Peak Botham was Miller's best competition for "genuine all rounder".

And for those saying Miller's bowling workload wasn't high enough - you don't get given the new ball without being seen as one of the leaders of the attack.

It's extraordinary to think that Miller played in 31 wins in 55 tests and only lost 9. That's an absurd record.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Very handsome bloke too by all reports. About as genuine an all-rounder as you can get.

 

[kyear2]

The problem with Imran as an all rounder was that he was never world class at both disciplines at the same time. Miller was. That's all I meant. Both Hadlee and Imran were better bowlers than Miller for a significant portion of their careers and Imran became a better batsman than Miller but not at the same time.

It's splitting hairs though really. Peak Botham was Miller's best competition for "genuine all rounder".

And for those saying Miller's bowling workload wasn't high enough - you don't get given the new ball without being seen as one of the leaders of the attack.

It's extraordinary to think that Miller played in 31 wins in 55 tests and only lost 9. That's an absurd record.

The issue with Botham is that we have to qualify him in the conversation by using "peak" or "early". The issue with Imran is that he never peaked with both bat and ball at the same time and while great as a bowler for me he isn't quite in the same league as Hadlee. While Hadlee wasn't the best batsman of the group; ok the worst; he was clearly the best bowler and consistently was a good no. 8. He averaged 27 in the tail. A top 5 fast bowler who averaged 27. What more from an all rounder do we need?

 

[Burgey]

Very handsome bloke too by all reports. About as genuine an all-rounder as you can get.

Didn't struggle. Claimed a Princess. And no wonder tbh. Cardus called him the Australian in Excelsis. Bloke had it all - fighter pilot, sporting hero, movie star looks. Imagine the coin he'd make today.

 

[aussie tragic]

With all the crap Botham gets over his bowling not being World Class, the rest of English bowlers must have been really bad then

Ian Botham England bowling records:
1. Most 5 wkt hauls ( 27 from 102 Tests)*
2. Fastest to 200 wickets
3. Fastest to 250 Wickets
4. 2nd fastest to 300 wickets (behind Trueman)

* James Anderson also has 27 5 wkt hauls but from 149 Tests

Botham was also the World Record holder for most wkts in Test history...don't recall any other world record holder bowler being considered 'more of a batsman' lol

 

[h_hurricane]

It is difficult to gauge the extent to which lack of support messes with a good bowler's statistics hence we should be careful not to over estimate it. However, selectively cherry picking someone's first 'n' tests and conveniently ignoring his repeated pathetic performances against the best is clearly worse than adjustments based on lack of bowling support.

By the way, Botham was never "more of a batsman". Let us not make him into someone who was good enough to bat in the top 5 or something. Never averaged 40+ with the bat at any time of his career iirc.