The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[bagapath]

Hahaha... emotional **** flying all around...

Other than some ear piercing scream with words like "garbage" "I know it" "I saw it" thrown in between, I can't hear anything civil or sensible. So I still stand by my post.

 

[OverratedSanity]

The stuff I remember about flower's keeping (which isn't a lot) wasn't good. Always thought he was pretty crap and most people who rely on their memory on the subject have the same opinion I do so it's become factual in my mind that he wasn't a good keeper. As stupid as that might sound, I think it's a more reliable indicator of what his keeping was like than any dismissal statistics can capture.

 

[TheJediBrah]

You can stand by whatever you want, it's a free country. Sorry if I came across as emotional, but everything you said was just so dumb, it broke my brain for a bit

 

[Prince EWS]

The stuff I remember about flower's keeping (which isn't a lot) wasn't good. Always thought he was pretty crap and most people who rely on their memory on the subjefty have the same opinion I do so it's become factual in my mind that he wasn't a good keeper. As stupid as that might sound, I think it's a more reliable indicator of what his keeping was like than any dismissal statistics can capture.

Yeah I'm a stats guy at heart but I think wicket keeping stats of that nature are basically useless. Flower's keeping was awful whenever I saw it -- not in the Dravid class of awful as TBJ said, but in I guess the Kamran Akmal class of awful keepers who regularly kept. The posters on the Zimbabwe cricket forum I visit largely agree to the point where they think the existence of players like Streak, Friend, Blignaut etc during Flower's career and some of the dire middle order batsmen who were selected along with this poor keeping meant the decision to ever select him as a keeper a pretty poor one tactically. He may have been servicable for a period but you'd definitely want better if you could get it, and when you're selectng an ATG team you certainly have better available.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Pretty remarkable that he managed to average 51 despite that workload. WAG. In a weird way the fact that he kept wickets kinda makes people overlook him when it comes to talking about ATG bats.

 

[Bolo]

There was a time when watching an untidy wicket keeper (like Flower) was a bit frustrating. It's just a fact that wicket keeping is no longer an art in itself. As long as they make runs and don't drop catches everyone is happy in the modern game. Poor keepers are just accepted and not noticed as much.

If you don't miss chances or give away byes, does it really matter how you look doing it? ABDV looked utterly incompetent as a test keeper. But except for his first few games in the role, I can barely remember him making a mistake that cost anything, and he took some screamers that the atg keepers would have been hit or miss on.

 

[trundler]

Flower has a fighting double century versus India in India. Legend. He rightly cashed in like all the other great batsmen at the turn of the century averages over 60 in the 00s. Not his fault he didn't play as much as he should've.

 

[vcs]

I thought AB de Villiers's keeping was excellent. They had such a great balance to their team in that 2012-13 period.

 

[TheJediBrah]

From what I saw the lesser AB's keeping was much better than Flower's. AB was a natural freak, probably barely even practised it.

 

[Bolo]

I thought AB de Villiers's keeping was excellent. They had such a great balance to their team in that 2012-13 period.

Agreed, except for his first few tests, when he was merely competent.

But he always looked like a crap keeper to me. Kinda like watching Dravid keep. Guys that didn't spend their lives training to be keepers and just didn't look the part... knowing how to stand etc. Not an issue for AB because he was such an athlete, and made it work... just wondering if the perception of a keeper looking the part is impacting assessment of how good a keeper they actually are.

 

[trundler]

Like I said, keepers lose more points for looking ungainly even if they're effective. Bairstow's keeping to pace is an example of this.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Like I said, keepers lose more points for looking ungainly even if they're effective. Bairstow's keeping to pace is an example of this.

I don't think this is true. Don't people consider Jack Russell a good keeper, and his keeping was as awkward looking as his batting at times.

 

[vcs]

AB took some blinders keeping to Steyn in those days. His keeping to spin was never tested, but they only had Peterson to hold an end down so it wasn't an issue.

 

[vcs]

Like I said, keepers lose more points for looking ungainly even if they're effective. Bairstow's keeping to pace is an example of this.

I agree with this. Taller keepers are never going to look as "natural" as the shortarses. I'm sure there are plenty of Australian fans who'd rate Healy's keeping as miles better than Gilchrist's mainly based on aesthetics, though there was hardly anything in it.

 

[Bolo]

I agree with this. Taller keepers are never going to look as "natural" as the shortarses. I'm sure there are plenty of Australian fans who'd rate Healy's keeping as miles better than Gilchrist's mainly based on aesthetics, though there was hardly anything in it.

A little true for bats as well perhaps? And perhaps, in reverse, true for bowlers?

 

[Malcolm]

Tracking the misses | The Cricket Monthly | ESPN Cricinfo

chances %miss

Mark Boucher 364 10%
BJ Walting 119 11%
Tatenda Taibu 57 11%
AB de Villiers 94 11%
Adam Gilchrist 357 12%
Kamran Akmal 203 20%
Sarfraz Ahmed 63 21%
Dinesh Karthik 50 22%
Adnan Akmal 77 20%
Mushfiqur Rahim 86 32%

 

[Bolo]

Tracking the misses | The Cricket Monthly | ESPN Cricinfo

chances %miss

Mark Boucher 364 10%
BJ Walting 119 11%
Tatenda Taibu 57 11%
AB de Villiers 94 11%
Adam Gilchrist 357 12%
Kamran Akmal 203 20%
Sarfraz Ahmed 63 21%
Dinesh Karthik 50 22%
Adnan Akmal 77 20%
Mushfiqur Rahim 86 32%

From the article:
"The wicketkeeper with the most misses is MS Dhoni with 66 (18%). In his defence, Dhoni had to deal with a high percentage of spin bowling, which presents a much greater challenge for keepers. Miss rates for leading wicketkeepers off spinners average around 30%, for both catches and stumpings, but it is only 10% for catches off pace bowlers."

Can't really equivocate given the difference between the the attacks. All the guys with good percentages kept mostly to pace. Gilchrists figures stand out on the one hand, because was spending a bunch of time keeping to Warne. But he also had a really easy job against the quicks. Hard to compare him to say boucher, who didn't have to keep to much spin, but had (at least early in his career), two nightmare quicks for a keeper.

Watling and taibu both had easy jobs in terms of who they were keeping to. AB had a ridiculously easy job, but had the excuse that he didn't have enough time to grow into the role

 

[Burgey]

Agreed, except for his first few tests, when he was merely competent.

But he always looked like a crap keeper to me. Kinda like watching Dravid keep. Guys that didn't spend their lives training to be keepers and just didn't look the part... knowing how to stand etc. Not an issue for AB because he was such an athlete, and made it work... just wondering if the perception of a keeper looking the part is impacting assessment of how good a keeper they actually are.

Yeah but I presume Bairstow has been a keeper all his life, and he looks atrocious because he seems to do the crocodile claw style catching. Yet he’s certainly competent enough behind the sticks despite looking like he will drop everything

 

[bagapath]

You can stand by whatever you want, it's a free country. Sorry if I came across as emotional, but everything you said was just so dumb, it broke my brain for a bit

Hahaha. What a guy. Hope it is fixed now. Cheers

PS:I was right. Live with it.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Hahaha. What a guy. Hope it is fixed now. Cheers

PS:I was right. Live with it.

Seems to be fixed now, well, as fixed as it ever was

you wrong doe