Shane Watson vs Andrew Symonds (ODIs)

[Flem274*]

If i had to pick one id take watson. Can bat anywhere, was good in every position and a quality bowler

 

[TheJediBrah]

Last time I looked Bevan had the highest rpi for a number 6 batsman. That could have been with a couple of minimum runs filters on though. His rpi was around 37 batting 6 IIRC, which is pretty incredible.

Here's the top run scorers batting #6.

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

evan has an rpi of 35 in the position. Dhoni has an rpi of 32 batting 6.

Rpi is crap. It's just a worse way of measuring average.

 

[stephen]

Rpi is crap. It's just a worse way of measuring average.

Agreed. But people often hold it against Bevan but the truth is that he was the best rpi for a number 6 by a significant margin as well as the best average. High rpi in the lower order is more valuable since runs down the order come in less favourable batting conditions - on a road the top order eat up the majority of the innings. It's only when the top order have been dismissed earlier that the lower order gets to shine.

 

[marc71178]

So which batsmen cleared the rope more frequently and safely?

I’ll the batsmen who average more at a quicker rate thanks. I know you have this massive hard on for Symonds to the extent that you quite ridiculously pick him as an all rounder for an all time eleven but truth is there are better options.

 

[trundler]

Klusener averages a ridiculous 23 in Australia. SR of 74. Yuvraj averages 30 @ 90 in Australia in an easier era. Dhoni does average 48 but his strike rate is much lower @ 74. Stephen does have a point but Marc would rather settle for the snarky one liner.

 

[stephen]

Symonds is definitely in the discussion for an AT XI, generally batting at 7. Whether he's there or not depends on the other players you pick and the role you need. If you're picking a side for the subcontinent he absolutely should be in the reckoning with his handly offies, rope clearing ability and ridiculous fielding. He's basically competing against Klusener for a spot in an AT XI, but a lot of people include Jayasuriya in an AT XI, which means you might not need Klusener's superior bowling and might go for Symonds' batting and fielding instead (Symonds was a better bat than Klusener, 99 WC notwithstanding).

Certainly Symonds isn't a lock, but he's by no means out of the conversation.

Watson I feel was very good but as an opener was one of many that could fill the roll with the bat just as well, and as a bowler wasn't as good as other options (e.g. Klusener). I'm not even sure I'd have Watson in an Australian XI. Let me think about this a bit.

Australian XI options:

Openers
Gilchrist, M Waugh, Hayden, Watson, Warner, Boon, Finch

Middle order batsmen
Ponting, Bevan, Jones, Clarke, Hussey, Smith, Martyn, S Waugh, Border, G Chappell, Lehmann

All rounders
Watson, Symonds, Faulkner, S Waugh

Bowlers
McGrath, Warne, Starc, Lee, Lillee, Bracken, Johnson, McDermott

Which leaves us with:

Gilchrist
M Waugh/Watson/Hayden
Ponting
Jones
Symonds
Bevan
Watson/Hussey/Faulkner
Starc
Warne
Lillee/Lee/Bracken
McGrath

Looking over those options I personally would have Watson bat 7. He was more suited to the top order but at the same time, Gilchrist + Waugh were better openers, Ponting, Jones, Symonds and Bevan all basically pick themselves for those batting positions with S Waugh and G Chappell the only other real option for batting 5. Symonds is the 5th highest run scorer in history batting at 5 behind Ranatunga, Waugh, Shakib and Inzi and is tied third behind Yuvraj and De Villiers for hundreds scored in that position.

So Watson is fighting Hussey and Faulkner for the Aussie AT number 7 slot IMO. I think Waugh was significantly better as an opener and the Australian AT 3-6 pick themselves.

 

[Red]

I'd have Symonds in both, most of the time:

Tendulkar
Gilchrist +
Richards
Kohli
DeVilliers
Symonds
Kapil
Wasim
Garner
Murali
McGrath

Watson
Gilchrist +
Ponting
M.Waugh
Jones
Symonds
Hussey
Starc
Warne
Lee
McGrath

 

[Flem274*]

symonds isn't anywhere near the world atg xi

 

[Adders]

Yeah some definite overating of Symonds by some in this thread. I wouldn't even think it's that close between him and Watson......Watson the better bowler and batsmen by a margin imo.

Only way Symonds makes an ATG side is as a specialist fielder.......and I don't think we're doing that now are we?

 

[TheJediBrah]

Anyone who thinks putting Symonds in an ATG side or that he's being overrated ITT clearly didn't see enough of him play

He'd almost be my first picked for an ATG side out of Australians. McGrath and Gilchrist the only other 2 that might pip him.

 

[Adders]

Anyone who thinks putting Symonds in an ATG side or that he's being overrated ITT clearly didn't see enough of him play

He'd almost be my first picked for an ATG side out of Australians. McGrath and Gilchrist the only other 2 that might pip him.

I watched him plenty and rate him highly. Aussie ATG I'd agree with.......World ATG, nah.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I watched him plenty and rate him highly. Aussie ATG I'd agree with.......World ATG, nah.

Of course it's subjective, I would definitely have him an World ATG side. He's worth more than Jayasuriya IMO, when you can have better openers. Even without his freakish fielding I'd have him in there.

 

[akilana]

Symonds maybe worth more to a team of your choice but he wasn’t a better player than Jayasurya.

Regarding the OP’s question, Waston was a better player than Symonds.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Symonds maybe worth more to a team of your choice but he wasn’t a better player than Jayasurya.

That's very debatable but ok

 

[stephen]

Symonds maybe worth more to a team of your choice but he wasn’t a better player than Jayasurya.

Regarding the OP’s question, Waston was a better player than Symonds.

I disagree Watson was a better player. Definitely a better bowler but Symonds was a better batsman and fielder. Symonds was also asked to generally play a more difficulty role. He scored his hundreds coming in after early wickets but he'd also often have to wait until the 40th or 45th over and come out swinging. He was a good enough bat to bat anywhere from 3 to 6 (probably even open but he was never really tested there).

I honestly think that Symonds would have had a better career for a less strong side. He'd have got to play more long innings.

Watson really was pretty ordinary when he wasn't opening and wasn't as good of an opener as others Australia has had, let alone other countries.

Symonds is pushing for a world XI spot, Watson for an Australian XI spot.

 

[Red]

Yeah some definite overating of Symonds by some in this thread. I wouldn't even think it's that close between him and Watson......Watson the better bowler and batsmen by a margin imo.

Only way Symonds makes an ATG side is as a specialist fielder.......and I don't think we're doing that now are we?

100% I would.

In actual fact I reckon a gun fielding combo would go close to beating whatever anyone else can put forward, especially ring and boundary fielders in ODIs.


A middle order of:

Viv Richards
Ricky Ponting
Paul Collingwood
Jonty Rhodes
Andrew Symonds

would gain the edge in a game over the next best combo you could put together, based entirely on fielding. IMO Symonds was the best of them.

 

[Malcolm]

Viv Richards
Ricky Ponting
AB de Villiers
Jonty Rhodes
Andrew Symonds

 

[Adders]

100% I would.

In actual fact I reckon a gun fielding combo would go close to beating whatever anyone else can put forward, especially ring and boundary fielders in ODIs.


A middle order of:

Viv Richards
Ricky Ponting
Paul Collingwood
Jonty Rhodes
Andrew Symonds

would gain the edge in a game over the next best combo you could put together, based entirely on fielding. IMO Symonds was the best of them.

I agree Symonds is the best of them, but can't agree that line up would stack up against a stronger batting unit. Much as I love him to bit's, you are going to get laughed out of town naming Paul Collingwood in a World ATG side.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

I'd put Roger Harper and Chris Harris ahead of all of them for fielding alone.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I'd put Roger Harper and Chris Harris ahead of all of them for fielding alone.

I never saw Harper but Chris Harris was not in the class of Ponting, Symonds or Rhodes, let alone better