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No that's not it Mr Sambit Bal

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
I almost started a new thread on CC titled "Cut the crap . . . shall we?" That starting post was bitterly sarcastic towards the reaction to the very justified criticism of Dhoni's batting in yesterday's game against England. But I didn't. I am in my 70th year and I need to chill :)

The reason I was writing that sarcastic thread opener was this.

I saw an article by the Editor in Chief of ESPNCricinfo, Sambit Bal, which was titled "Don't blame Dhoni or the boundary, the better side won".

It had me fuming. Et tu Sambit ?

"Come on Sambit. Being the Editor in Chief of the leading cricket site in our country if not the world, you need to be more circumspect." is what I wanted to write in response to his post. Unfortunately, comments are not allowed on Mr Bal's articles on Cricinfo so let me address him here.

First of all. Its not about blaming Dhoni for the loss. Dhoni never was the God to guarantee a win in every chase for India. Now he is not even the batsman he once was. He was captain "cool cucumber" which added to his once formidable assessment of the pace of the game and his own capability to meet the task at hand is what has seen him see us through so many tough chase situations. But he is not the player he once was and his big hits have clearly deserted him. Not in this World Cup but from some time back. You don't have to argue about it here, just go over his stats for the last couple of years and see the runs scored in over boundaries.

But we digress.

India were clearly chasing a formidable score and it was always going to be tough. Failing to successfully chase 238 would have been disappointing but not a failure difficult to explain and acknowledge. The issue is not that India lost but the manner in which they went about trying to achieve the target.

Fortunately for those who feel Dhoni played in an inexplicable manner, West Indies were today faced with a target almost identical to India's - 338 against 337. West Indies's spirited reply is a stunning rebuke of those who tried to support Dhoni's strange tactics. I can use stronger terms that 'strange' here but its not needed.

I wrote somewhere on CC many long years ago about how stats , particularly cricket stats, can be used and abused in many a way and the same match's stats (or the same cricketers career stats) can be used to prove two completely opposing viewpoints. Stats alone are dangerous in cricket but they are the regular cricket fans main weapon.

So let me put some simple stats here.

Before that a few points made by people about India's innings. It was a bad start. Rohit has to take the blame for he played too slow to start with and it was difficult to catch up despite Dhoni's terrific efforts . . so on and so forth. I am now just going to put stats here and draw your own conclusions.

Run chases.jpg

These are two simple tables of the two run chases - first India chasing 338 and then Windies chasing 339. The situation at the end of every ten overs is given here - the runs remaining to be scored, number of overs remaining, the required run rate and the wickets in hand - all at the end of the 10th, 20th, 30th, 39th and 47th overs.

I use 39th instead of 40th because something else happened at the end of the 39th over - India lost a wicket off the first ball of the 40th over and Dhoni then came into bat. So to be fair to Dhoni I have separated the period before and after his arrival at the crease.

And can be seen, despite the hundreds of protestations to the contrary, the runs remaining to be scored remain more or less the same between the stats for India's chase and that of the Windies. The difference between the required run rate at the end of the first four periods is merely 0.2, NIL, 0.3 and then 0.7 at the end of the 39th over.

The very slight advantage (if one can call it that) in favor of the Windies is blown away by the fact that at every stage they have lost more wickets than India making their task more difficult as the match went on. This is precisely what happened finally. They lost the 8th wicket and suddenly the task became too much for the tail.

But we go ahead of ourselves.

So the situation as for runs scored is very closely aligned but Windies have lost more wickets (6 against India's 3) when Dhoni comes in to bat.

Over the next eight overs (39th to 47th) Windies score 74 runs in 8 overs while India scores merely 55. We now stand at 281 for 5 while Windies have reached 308 for 7.

They now need, in the last three overs, 32 to win at 10.7 while we need a whopping 57 at 19 runs per over. In those eight overs India lost the commanding position they held before Pant got out and Dhoni replaced him.

The only thing in India's favor was they still had 5 wickets in hand. Windies had the tail creeping in. With Dhoni walked in the gap of mere 7 runs that separated India from what Windies managed had climbed to 24 and there were ONLY 3 more overs to go. THAT 24 runs difference meant India now needed a run rate eight per over more than they did at the same stage.

Of course they were into the tail so the moment the next wicket fell, early in the 48th over their cause was doomed. India had blown away their commanding situation at the time of the fall of the 4th wicket.

BUT it does not end here.

Needing a near impossible 19 an over, India still needed to go hell and leather to hit 4's and 6's to get closer.
20-25 an over in a limited overs game is not unheard of. One such over of the next three would mean the other two needed to yield 11 each or so per over. Dhoni might have scored a few runs in those three overs to get close to the score of the batsman who replaced him in the batting order but it was never a desperate do or die batting performance even at that stage.

Of course it was a very tough task at that stage but who was responsible for it?

No Mr Bal, it was not the wicket, not the shorter or longer boundaries, not Rahul and not Rohit. It was the man we have always expected miracles from at this stage even though he is clearly past the use by date.

That is what hurts Indian fans including those who were walking out of the stadium even when two overs were left.

It was a not a loss that caused a 70 years old to feel resentful. It was the manner in which, 'Captain Cool' performed.
 

Attitude

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
I would like an official reason for what they did, esp. Dhoni, but of course there will probably never be one forthcoming.

So in the absence of one, there could be only be one justification for it.

India or Dhoni had their own target in mind, that get to 300, take a tactical defeat, ensure that NRR takes the tiniest hit possible and move on. That it would put Pakistan on the edge of elimination would be a welcome bonus.

It was a theme followed in the IPL as well, that teams strived to settled for a respectable defeat and min. hit to the NRR. I suspect that is what carried on out there.

I don't think that the WI game is particularly useful as a comparison here.

WI were out, Ind are almost through as long as NRR is not messed up. Therefore, India focusing on NRR makes more sense. WI could do what they wanted. All out 150 or lose by 10 runs, it was all the same to them.
 
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SJS

Hall of Fame Member
I would like an official reason for what they did, esp. Dhoni, but of course there will probably never be one forthcoming.

So in the absence of one, there could be only be one justification for it.

India or Dhoni had their own target in mind, that get to 300, take a tactical defeat, ensure that NRR takes the tiniest hit possible and move on. That it would put Pakistan on the edge of elimination would be a welcome bonus.

It was a theme followed in the IPL as well, that teams strived to settled for a respectable defeat and min. hit to the NRR. I suspect that is what carried on out there.

I don't think that the WI game is particularly useful as a comparison here.

WI were out, Ind are almost through as long as NRR is not messed up. Therefore, India focusing on NRR makes more sense. WI could do what they wanted. All out 150 or lose by 10 runs, it was all the same to them.
Oh I use the West Indian innings only because it is such a similar score chase wise and just the day after. No two games can be compared really but what the players would like to do in a big run chase is clear. Start carefully but do not take too long over it, build up the scoring rate keeping an eye to never let it reach a RRR level that is difficult to maintain for a prolonged period, keep wickets in hand to be able to go for it towards the end and so on.

I am not sure this was part of a strategy. But if it was, it might explain why Hardik Pandya also played slower once Dhoni joined him at the crease. If that is really the case, it is a disgrace. Going for a run chase, specially a big one against a more than decent attack is not something one gets too many chances to do well and successfully. For Hardik Pandya and one of the other youngsters, contributing significantly to a big successful run chase is not something they are likely to get too often.
 

ankitj

Hall of Fame Member
Targetting NRR should be a droppable offence. Current NRRs are India +0.854, Pak -0.792, BD -0.133. And India has to lose to both BD and SL by a big margin for it to come into equation.
 

Borges

International Regular
Both Dhoni and Jadhav deserve to be dropped for all subsequent games.

If the team management meekly accepts this nonsense, decide to do nothing about this, we need better people to be in charge of the team;
it ought to result in the end of the tenures of Kohli and Shastri as captain and coach.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
I don't know why there aren't calls for a corruption investigation into it. There would be if it was Pakistan. They've basically tried not to win a game. It's dodgy AF. They should be kicked out of the competition, but no one would have the balls to do it.
 

OverratedSanity

Request Your Custom Title Now!
It did indeed look dodgy but it looked about as dodgy as all the other times Dhoni has been involved in a chase like this in the last few years. He's either an absolutely rubbish batsman in chases now or the most prolific fixer since Salim Malik.
 

srbhkshk

International Captain
Targetting NRR should be a droppable offence. Current NRRs are India +0.854, Pak -0.792, BD -0.133. And India has to lose to both BD and SL by a big margin for it to come into equation.
It doesn't even help the NRR , if they slogged like mad men and got all out in the 48th over, they would still end up on pretty much the same score.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
It did indeed look dodgy but it looked about as dodgy as all the other times Dhoni has been involved in a chase like this in the last few years. He's either an absolutely rubbish batsman in chases now or the most prolific fixer since Salim Malik.
Tbf he doesn’t need the Arthur Ashe, does he?
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
Jadhav and Dhoni should be dropped like Boycott was for scoring a slow 100. No player is above the team.
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
Captain Cool has always been Captain ****. I have been saying this for years. The fact that there are now several threads which show people are finally coming round to this provides vindication and fills me with a renewed vigour to contribute more actively and regularly to CC.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Eleven years ago, late Rajan Bala, one of the finest cricket journalists from India ever, wrote a small piece on Dhoni, wondering, even that long back -what was to him something peculiar about Dhoni. He did not identify but wondered aloud . . . Rajan Bala was not one of those to mince words or be shy of calling a spade a bloody shovel - but in this case he kept his counsel.

Here is that bit

QUOTE

Now, it’s Dhoni mania
Wednesday, 12 November 2008 07:13 by Rajan Bala

Now, it’s Dhoni mania
Wednesday, 12 November 2008 07:13 by Rajan Bala

It is not in the least surprising that the country has been seized by what is known as Dhoni mania. It is being said that he has the Midas touch, implying that he can never go wrong and all that he touches turns into gold.

People tend to forget that King Midas forgot that the boon he was granted by the fates ensured that he touched his beloved daughter who turned into a gold statue and the inconsolable father realised that he had lost her forever. The lesson is, it does not pay to be greedy.

Talking to some of his colleagues has not helped in getting an insight into Dhoni’s psyche.

Sourav Ganguly has gone on record to say that he sees in Dhoni’s captaincy certain aspects of his own. Anil Kumble, one of the fairest and practical of all cricketers, is of the view that the player needs time and one should not go over the moon because of his few successes.

The fact is Dhoni has captured the imagination of the cricket loving public in this country and being in command in the two Tests which India won against Australia has raised his stock sky high. Add to these those timely and wonderful gestures at the closing of the final Test in Nagpur. He had Ganguly leading after the ninth Australian wicket fell, and when victory was achieved, he invited Kumble to jointly hold the Border-Gavaskar Trophy. Even the best public relations man could not have written a better script.

It is almost impossible to believe that one man, and one so young, with the onerous task of winning the Test and the series, could keep his mind on the gestures that are more important than victory or defeat. He has done so and full marks to him. However, one is not sure what to make of him. Certainly he is an excellent cricketer all right, but there seems to be more to him than any cricketer before. One just hopes that the unanswered questions do not provide unsatisfactory answers, because the player and the man are just too good to be true.

UNQUOTE
 

sledger

Spanish_Vicente
I almost started a new thread on CC titled "Cut the crap . . . shall we?" That starting post was bitterly sarcastic towards the reaction to the very justified criticism of Dhoni's batting in yesterday's game against England. But I didn't. I am in my 70th year and I need to chill :)

The reason I was writing that sarcastic thread opener was this.

I saw an article by the Editor in Chief of ESPNCricinfo, Sambit Bal, which was titled "Don't blame Dhoni or the boundary, the better side won".

It had me fuming. Et tu Sambit ?

"Come on Sambit. Being the Editor in Chief of the leading cricket site in our country if not the world, you need to be more circumspect." is what I wanted to write in response to his post. Unfortunately, comments are not allowed on Mr Bal's articles on Cricinfo so let me address him here.

First of all. Its not about blaming Dhoni for the loss. Dhoni never was the God to guarantee a win in every chase for India. Now he is not even the batsman he once was. He was captain "cool cucumber" which added to his once formidable assessment of the pace of the game and his own capability to meet the task at hand is what has seen him see us through so many tough chase situations. But he is not the player he once was and his big hits have clearly deserted him. Not in this World Cup but from some time back. You don't have to argue about it here, just go over his stats for the last couple of years and see the runs scored in over boundaries.

But we digress.

India were clearly chasing a formidable score and it was always going to be tough. Failing to successfully chase 238 would have been disappointing but not a failure difficult to explain and acknowledge. The issue is not that India lost but the manner in which they went about trying to achieve the target.

Fortunately for those who feel Dhoni played in an inexplicable manner, West Indies were today faced with a target almost identical to India's - 338 against 337. West Indies's spirited reply is a stunning rebuke of those who tried to support Dhoni's strange tactics. I can use stronger terms that 'strange' here but its not needed.

I wrote somewhere on CC many long years ago about how stats , particularly cricket stats, can be used and abused in many a way and the same match's stats (or the same cricketers career stats) can be used to prove two completely opposing viewpoints. Stats alone are dangerous in cricket but they are the regular cricket fans main weapon.

So let me put some simple stats here.

Before that a few points made by people about India's innings. It was a bad start. Rohit has to take the blame for he played too slow to start with and it was difficult to catch up despite Dhoni's terrific efforts . . so on and so forth. I am now just going to put stats here and draw your own conclusions.

View attachment 24755

These are two simple tables of the two run chases - first India chasing 338 and then Windies chasing 339. The situation at the end of every ten overs is given here - the runs remaining to be scored, number of overs remaining, the required run rate and the wickets in hand - all at the end of the 10th, 20th, 30th, 39th and 47th overs.

I use 39th instead of 40th because something else happened at the end of the 39th over - India lost a wicket off the first ball of the 40th over and Dhoni then came into bat. So to be fair to Dhoni I have separated the period before and after his arrival at the crease.

And can be seen, despite the hundreds of protestations to the contrary, the runs remaining to be scored remain more or less the same between the stats for India's chase and that of the Windies. The difference between the required run rate at the end of the first four periods is merely 0.2, NIL, 0.3 and then 0.7 at the end of the 39th over.

The very slight advantage (if one can call it that) in favor of the Windies is blown away by the fact that at every stage they have lost more wickets than India making their task more difficult as the match went on. This is precisely what happened finally. They lost the 8th wicket and suddenly the task became too much for the tail.

But we go ahead of ourselves.

So the situation as for runs scored is very closely aligned but Windies have lost more wickets (6 against India's 3) when Dhoni comes in to bat.

Over the next eight overs (39th to 47th) Windies score 74 runs in 8 overs while India scores merely 55. We now stand at 281 for 5 while Windies have reached 308 for 7.

They now need, in the last three overs, 32 to win at 10.7 while we need a whopping 57 at 19 runs per over. In those eight overs India lost the commanding position they held before Pant got out and Dhoni replaced him.

The only thing in India's favor was they still had 5 wickets in hand. Windies had the tail creeping in. With Dhoni walked in the gap of mere 7 runs that separated India from what Windies managed had climbed to 24 and there were ONLY 3 more overs to go. THAT 24 runs difference meant India now needed a run rate eight per over more than they did at the same stage.

Of course they were into the tail so the moment the next wicket fell, early in the 48th over their cause was doomed. India had blown away their commanding situation at the time of the fall of the 4th wicket.

BUT it does not end here.

Needing a near impossible 19 an over, India still needed to go hell and leather to hit 4's and 6's to get closer.
20-25 an over in a limited overs game is not unheard of. One such over of the next three would mean the other two needed to yield 11 each or so per over. Dhoni might have scored a few runs in those three overs to get close to the score of the batsman who replaced him in the batting order but it was never a desperate do or die batting performance even at that stage.

Of course it was a very tough task at that stage but who was responsible for it?

No Mr Bal, it was not the wicket, not the shorter or longer boundaries, not Rahul and not Rohit. It was the man we have always expected miracles from at this stage even though he is clearly past the use by date.

That is what hurts Indian fans including those who were walking out of the stadium even when two overs were left.

It was a not a loss that caused a 70 years old to feel resentful. It was the manner in which, 'Captain Cool' performed.
can you just make shorter and more succinct posts ffs
 

aussie tragic

International Captain
Haha, and I am entitled to call whatever self-indulgent verbosity I like/
Which explains why you keep dredging up 10 year old threads with no additional thoughts added by you. I guess because you are not capable of a unique thought of your own....sorry for you that you are so academically challenged
 
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