South Africa team selection

[StephenZA]

So we want to go for a new brand of exciting cricket allowing the players to play with freedom. And then pick none of the youngsters that could actually do that. How much more I would like to see the option of playing Verreynne or Mulder (not as exciting but definitely a wicket taking batting all-rounder). The only thing we did was pick Nortje and then backed down. If you look at our squad right now what is the difference from 4 years ago really. Other than we lost our best batsmen.

 

[MrPrez]

Look how poor the test team was this summer ? There was no forward thinking at all. Gibson lived off Australia/India test series wins and we all know how big a role AB played.

Say it again, we need to start a Woolmer/Arthur era now. Young and exciting. Next coach appointment is extremely important.

I can't remember how Arthur's reign ended. Would he not be interested in a return?

 

[Bahseph]

So we want to go for a new brand of exciting cricket allowing the players to play with freedom. And then pick none of the youngsters that could actually do that. How much more I would like to see the option of playing Verreynne or Mulder (not as exciting but definitely a wicket taking batting all-rounder). The only thing we did was pick Nortje and then backed down. If you look at our squad right now what is the difference from 4 years ago really. Other than we lost our best batsmen.

The cold hard truth. Pretty sure Gibson banked on AB being there. But how good of a coach are you if you are relying on individual brilliance to win you games all the time? Rossouw was a hundred scoring middle order player who we literally haven't replaced.

 

[MrPrez]

I'd like to see us go all-in on young players in our next test series. Keep a few experienced hands like Faf and Steyn for the transition, but chuck a bunch of youngsters in and be willing to take a year or two of sub-par performance for a long-term future.

Something like:

Markram
Malan/Elgar
van Tonder/Hamza
Faf
Verreyne
Mulder
de Kock
Philander
Steyn
Rabada
<Spinner>

 

[SeamUp]

I can't remember how Arthur's reign ended. Would he not be interested in a return?

Struggling to remember but I think there was a build up to him leaving like it was coming.

 

[Dendarii]

We may all agree that an overhaul is needed, but will Cricket South Africa? Are they going to be willing to appoint a coach who will make the necessary calls, and more importantly will he be allowed to? I do wonder whether the selection of players like Amla and Duminy was actually what Gibson wanted or whether he was persuaded to give them one last chance at World Cup glory, and if it was what he wanted then it just reinforces my growing opinion that he hasn't been all that good as a coach.

 

[Dendarii]

I'd like to see us go all-in on young players in our next test series. Keep a few experienced hands like Faf and Steyn for the transition, but chuck a bunch of youngsters in and be willing to take a year or two of sub-par performance for a long-term future.

Something like:

Markram
Malan/Elgar
van Tonder/Hamza
Faf
Verreyne
Mulder
de Kock
Philander
Steyn
Rabada
<Spinner>

I'd put Van der Dussen in there somewhere as well as he's been one of the few bright spots in our batting. He's obviously not a youngster, but he could be our version of Mike Hussey i.e. an older player who hits the ground running and we get a good 4-5 years out of him.

 

[MrPrez]

I'd put Van der Dussen in there somewhere as well as he's been one of the few bright spots in our batting. He's obviously not a youngster, but he could be our version of Mike Hussey i.e. an older player who hits the ground running and we get a good 4-5 years out of him.

Yeah possibly. I'm not a fan at this point but then I wasn't a fan back when we gave Faf a Test shot so I'm not a great judge of these things.

 

[SeamUp]

We may all agree that an overhaul is needed, but will Cricket South Africa? Are they going to be willing to appoint a coach who will make the necessary calls, and more importantly will he be allowed to? I do wonder whether the selection of players like Amla and Duminy was actually what Gibson wanted or whether he was persuaded to give them one last chance at World Cup glory, and if it was what he wanted then it just reinforces my growing opinion that he hasn't been all that good as a coach.

I remember saying at the time when he was favourite to be next coach that things didn't go to well when he was in charge of the Windies which is obviously a tough job but they really under-performed.

He has totally neglected our batting progression along with Benkenstein. Removing McKenzie who was on the verge of getting Quinny to his potential. Markram's growth has stuttered. You can say de Bruyn and Bavuma haven't really kicked on.

He is a bowling coach only.

 

[StephenZA]

It has just been all very un-South African. This chilled approach. We best when we play with passion and aggression. How flat have we been in the field.

What has been even more disappointing is how ineffectual 2 of our gun bowlers in KG and Lungi have been particularly in their first spells.

Ironic considering we have a fielding and a fielding/batting coach. Our batting has really suffered. I think overall our bowling has been good, but obviously this WC plan was abyssal.

Look how poor the test team was this summer ? There was no forward thinking at all. Gibson lived off Australia/India test series wins and we all know how big a role AB played.

Say it again, we need to start a Woolmer/Arthur era now. Young and exciting. Next coach appointment is extremely important.

Think we need to go for a new coach like you listed, Prince, Boucher.... I`m not sure though if Maketa may get it or maybe Toyana? What I want to see though is choices of young dynamic talented youngsters.

And I also want to see a bit more belief and freedom in our abilities. When SA we re-entered international cricket many years ago under Wessels, he instilled a sense of disciple and purpose because it is what we needed at the time. But I do think it also instilled a sense of to much discipline and 'process' want to see the youngsters back their talent and go for it a bit more. We will struggle for a few years but as you say long term it will be good for the team and SA cricket in general. We have the talent.

 

[StephenZA]

We may all agree that an overhaul is needed, but will Cricket South Africa? Are they going to be willing to appoint a coach who will make the necessary calls, and more importantly will he be allowed to? I do wonder whether the selection of players like Amla and Duminy was actually what Gibson wanted or whether he was persuaded to give them one last chance at World Cup glory, and if it was what he wanted then it just reinforces my growing opinion that he hasn't been all that good as a coach.

I am hoping that the fact he got a 2 year contract and it was for the WC he was picked that, no they don't go on with him.

I truly think that Amla has stayed on because he was asked. And he has looked good this WC, it was unfortunate that he got concussed. And I know Duminy is not a favourite with anybody, but he was better than Miller yesterday. But then I don't think Miller or Duminy should be there.

 

[SeamUp]

Ironic considering we have a fielding and a fielding/batting coach. Our batting has really suffered. I think overall our bowling has been good, but obviously this WC plan was abyssal.

Think we need to go for a new coach like you listed, Prince, Boucher.... I`m not sure though if Maketa may get it or maybe Toyana? What I want to see though is choices of young dynamic talented youngsters.

And I also want to see a bit more belief and freedom in our abilities. When SA we re-entered international cricket many years ago under Wessels, he instilled a sense of disciple and purpose because it is what we needed at the time. But I do think it also instilled a sense of to much discipline and 'process' want to see the youngsters back their talent and go for it a bit more. We will struggle for a few years but as you say long term it will be good for the team and SA cricket in general. We have the talent.

My concern with guys like them and Rob Walter is that the next coach needs to be so hands on working with young players. It could shape our cricket for the next 5-10 years.

We don't have guys like Wessels, P.Kirsten that Rhodes/Cronje/Cullinan/G.Kirsten fed off and G.Kirsten/Cullinan who someone like Gibbs/Kallis/Smith fed off or Kallis/Smith who Amla/AB fed off.

But maybe it isn't needed much in ODI cricket and just be free that is why Faf sticks around in tests only but will he ?

That means guys like Boucher/Prince/McKenzie with international experience know what the young players will potentially go through when they may struggle early on it will be about mental preparation but also technical. Kallis always mentions how Fletcher/Woolmer helped him early on with his technical work.

 

[Dendarii]

He is a bowling coach only.

And you have to ask what he's really done in that regard. We won test matches by producing pitches tailor made for our bowlers, but lost to Sri Lanka at home when the pitches weren't as favourable. The bowling hasn't been up to scratch in the World Cup so far and he's done little to build any depth in ODIs - picking Morris, a bowler who averages over 40 after 35 matches is inexcusable given South Africa's fast bowling legacy.

 

[StephenZA]

https://www.sport24.co.za/Cricket/C...s-must-look-themselves-in-the-mirror-20190603

Despite having made their worst ever start to a World Cup and flirting with the possibility of being eliminated from the playoff conversation before any other team, the Proteas have made a point of taking a calm approach into this tournament. It is a philosophy that will certainly be tested this week, though, especially if things do not go well against India.
"There is a relaxed, calm feeling about it," Duminy said when describing the squad's mental approach in 2019.

I don't want to see calmness I want to see controlled anger and aggression.

 

[Dendarii]

I truly think that Amla has stayed on because he was asked. And he has looked good this WC, it was unfortunate that he got concussed.

That is true, and he has looked in good touch. So maybe this is one of those times that sticking with a player and hoping he comes right has worked, but he is a little lucky to have still been there given the decline in his performance over the past couple of years.

 

[StephenZA]

My concern with guys like them and Rob Walter is that the next coach needs to be so hands on working with young players. It could shape our cricket for the next 5-10 years.

We don't have guys like Wessels, P.Kirsten that Rhodes/Cronje/Cullinan/G.Kirsten fed off and G.Kirsten/Cullinan who someone like Gibbs/Kallis/Smith fed off or Kallis/Smith who Amla/AB fed off.

But maybe it isn't needed much in ODI cricket and just be free that is why Faf sticks around in tests only but will he ?

That means guys like Boucher/Prince have international experience and know what these young players are going through when they may struggle early on it will mental preparation but also technical. Kallis always mentions how Fletcher/Woolmer helped him early on with his technical work.

I`m hoping we see a good coaching team. With decent international experience and hands on coaching, along with a head coach with good man management skills. I would love for Kirsten to come back. Even if it is just for a 2 year get the ball rolling again and give direction.

I want a total overall of our ODI side, new names everywhere right from the beginning, playing with freedom. Not so convinced regards our test team. I want to see Mulder and Hamza in the team. Hopefully Faf, Steyn and Philander can stay at least another year - 18 months. Replacing Elgar at this stage I don't think is good. If Hamza and co can settle, and Elgar has not performed, we can continue making changes.

 

[StephenZA]

That is true, and he has looked in good touch. So maybe this is one of those times that sticking with a player and hoping he comes right has worked, but he is a little lucky to have still been there given the decline in his performance over the past couple of years.

It is not really our top order that has been a problem though. It is 5-7. Struggled for a quality all-rounder and a strong middle order with some power hitting. Bowling is quality top order is quality. In both games we lost we went from 150ish for 2/3 to 200+ all out. Because we cant really rely on the middle/lower order getting us home and or out of trouble.

Hence our plan of bowling teams out for under 300. So the real disappointment is how poorly we have bowled, going away from what our bowlers do best and picking a couple of dodgy all-rounders as backup?

 

[StephenZA]

Maybe we giving Gibson an unnecessary hard time? Maybe he is planning for us to have to win 6 'knock-out' games in a row to get us to the 'semis' so we have the practise? 9th dimension thinking anybody?

 

[Dendarii]

I want a total overall of our ODI side, new names everywhere right from the beginning, playing with freedom. Not so convinced regards our test team.

I know this goes a little against the grain here on CW, but right now I don't care about the test team. Unless a miracle happens and we manage to pull it together, it's going to be yet another ICC tournament that we've failed at.

We need to take a leaf out of England's book and start building towards the next World Cup as soon as this one is over. Identify a strategy and find the players who can implement that strategy. I refuse to believe that we don't have the talent available in this country, so it's a matter of properly utilising that talent.

 

[Dendarii]

Maybe we giving Gibson an unnecessary hard time? Maybe he is planning for us to have to win 6 'knock-out' games in a row to get us to the 'semis' so we have the practise? 9th dimension thinking anybody?

Not even Ray Jennings would plan like that.