Top Five Cricketers from each country

[stephen]

Rating Kallis ahead of Tendulkar is not an inconceivable thought at all. Certainly not as ludicrous as rating Lillee ahead of Imran and Hadlee as overall cricketers. Yet, many do so. While Tendulkar,Kallis,Imran and Hadlee performed in most conditions, Lillee was mostly an ashes hero. Incredibly overrated by many(mostly Aussie and English).

Tendulkar is also overrated by many but the most overrated cricketer of his generation is undoubtedly Warne. Did jacks**t against the best spin playing team of his generation. Got owned in his debut series in 1991-92. Came to India in 1998 with a reputation as the best spin bowler ever,got brutally owned there too. In 1999-00, while Mcgrath and Lee were owning an extremely poor indian team, Warne got owned there as well. Came back to India again in 2001,got owned again. He did decently in 2004(only relative to his performances earlier).

Spoken like someone who has more familiarity with the cricinfo advanced filter than with Warne's career.

 

[h_hurricane]

Spoken like someone who has more familiarity with the cricinfo advanced filter than with Warne's career.

I have seen every single test match Warne has played against India. The only stage at which he was feared was when he came to India in 1998 with the reputation of the best spinner ever. After having a good first day of the first test match, he rapidly deteriorated. Every time he came to ball against India after this, the feeling I got was "here is a guy whose test average would be poorer by half a run at least once the series finishes".

I have watched a lot of him from the mid nineties in non Indian matches, and he was awesome against the Cullinans and the Strausses of the world, not so much against great batsmen against spin.

 

[Burgey]

The only order in which Border is ahead of Bradman is the alphabetical one.

Border is as important to his era of Australian cricket as Bradman was to his. Bradman certainly the better batsman, obviously.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Spoken like someone who has more familiarity with the cricinfo advanced filter than with Warne's career.

I don't get it. Are you arguing Warne wasn't completely demolished by India virtually every time he played them. It was apparent when watching those games, the stats are just the confirmation.

 

[Burgey]

stephen may be referring to things which were going on with Warne around the times he made his various tours. I know around one of them he had not long come back from either a finger or shoulder injury, but to me he had enough chances touring there to set his record right but didn't. It's obviously a glaring hole in his career stats. In fact, I'd pretty comfortably say Ponting did more setting his individual record straight in India than Warne did, with a couple of pretty solid-to-pretty-damn-goodish tours at the back end. Warne, as I think h-hurricane said, was serviceable in 04 over there, but that aside didn't bring much at all to the table.

 

[J_C]

Rating Kallis ahead of Tendulkar is not an inconceivable thought at all. Certainly not as ludicrous as rating Lillee ahead of Imran and Hadlee as overall cricketers. Yet, many do so. While Tendulkar,Kallis,Imran and Hadlee performed in most conditions, Lillee was mostly an ashes hero. Incredibly overrated by many(mostly Aussie and English).

Tendulkar is also overrated by many but the most overrated cricketer of his generation is undoubtedly Warne. Did jacks**t against the best spin playing team of his generation. Got owned in his debut series in 1991-92. Came to India in 1998 with a reputation as the best spin bowler ever,got brutally owned there too. In 1999-00, while Mcgrath and Lee were owning an extremely poor indian team, Warne got owned there as well. Came back to India again in 2001,got owned again. He did decently in 2004(only relative to his performances earlier).

Nah mate. He was unfit in 98, 99 and 2001 where he not only played the entire Test series but also the subsequent ODIs. The only time he was fully fit against India was in 2004 when he actually missed the last Test of the series due to an injury

 

[h_hurricane]

Nah mate. He was unfit in 98, 99 and 2001 where he not only played the entire Test series but also the subsequent ODIs. The only time he was fully fit against India was in 2004 when he actually missed the last Test of the series due to an injury

As a matter of fact, he was unfit in 1991-92 as well, very unfit in fact.

 

[Burgey]

Haha early Warne with the mullet and beer gut is robelinda2 Gold.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

I have seen every single test match Warne has played against India. The only stage at which he was feared was when he came to India in 1998 with the reputation of the best spinner ever. After having a good first day of the first test match, he rapidly deteriorated. Every time he came to ball against India after this, the feeling I got was "here is a guy whose test average would be poorer by half a run at least once the series finishes".

I have watched a lot of him from the mid nineties in non Indian matches, and he was awesome against the Cullinans and the Strausses of the world, not so much against great batsmen against spin.

Even before the first test match , there were news paper articles about unnecessary hyping of Warne , pointing out Indians are traditionally good against spinners , and Warne is over rated compared to Akram , Donald , Waqar..etc . Even some of them made comparisons with Warne and Kumble by saying most of the Warne wickets are Healy - M.Waugh / Taylor Assisted catches and stumpings while Kumble takes more LBWs and clean Bowled wickets.

 

[ankitj]

OK, that's a weird point to make in this already weird thread.

 

[Red]

Jesus Christ the anti Australian sentiment is strong with some of you

Probably read too much sycophantic **** from dribblers like Kimber.

 

[Red]

Even before the first test match , there were news paper articles about unnecessary hyping of Warne , pointing out Indians are traditionally good against spinners , and Warne is over rated compared to Akram , Donald , Waqar..etc . Even some of them made comparisons with Warne and Kumble by saying most of the Warne wickets are Healy - M.Waugh / Taylor Assisted catches and stumpings while Kumble takes more LBWs and clean Bowled wickets.

Probably because Warne actually turned the ball and actually bought the keeper and slips into play, while Kumble just bowled straight toppies with the occasional one that went back into the pads or stumps.

 

[the big bambino]

Grimmet had basically Maileys record against England. Both had a very decent WPM due to hardly any other bowlers of note in the team. Averages nearly identical though at 32 and 34.

One is remembered as a footnote and one a legend. Stop bigging up 1930s SA as a powerhouse side.

You're absolutely doing a disservice to Warnes record by ignoring the countless serieswhere he bowled Australia to victory, India excepted. Grimmet is like the Headley to Sachin or Sobers.

Yeah irrelevant. The comparison is with Warne, not Mailey. They also played with Gregory, McDonald and O'Reilly. Others too like Ironmonger, Fleetwood Smith, Nash, McCormick and Wall. Geez its not as if any player who hasn't got a book written about is useless.

I never claimed SA was a powerhouse. You said they were minnows. Clearly minnows can't twice beat a top side over five test series. You have no appreciation of the game you reckon you like. Living in a jingoistic bubble, you're ignorant of the game's history.

I'm not doing any disservice to Warne. It just so happens that he enjoys every advantage in a comparsion with Grimmett yet still has an inferior record. He's just not the top cricketer of the century some people in their wet dreams believe.

 

[mr_mister]

Yeah irrelevant. The comparison is with Warne, not Mailey. They also played with Gregory, McDonald and O'Reilly. Others too like Ironmonger, Fleetwood Smith, Nash, McCormick and Wall. Geez its not as if any player who hasn't got a book written about is useless.

I never claimed SA was a powerhouse. You said they were minnows. Clearly minnows can't twice beat a top side over five test series. You have no appreciation of the game you reckon you like. Living in a jingoistic bubble, you're ignorant of the game's history.

I'm not doing any disservice to Warne. It just so happens that he enjoys every advantage in a comparsion with Grimmett yet still has an inferior record. He's just not the top cricketer of the century some people in their wet dreams believe.

Nash played 2 tests. McDonald and Fleetwood Smith not much more. Australian bowling between the wars was essentially Mailey, Gregory, Grimmett and O'Reilly. No-one else had any long term impact. Ironmonger I guess kinda counts too.


I've read plenty of books from the era, I'm no less ignorant than you. You're pretending Warne is bad to be a contrarian

 

[the big bambino]

Hey i was just thinking that MacGill averaged about 50 against India and Warne 47. Yet one is a footnote and the other a legend ...

Nash only played 2 tests that's true. Sigh. Missed opportunity that one. Didn't say Warne was bad anymore I said SA in Grimmett's day were a powerhouse. He was magnificent and a legend. Just don't think he's top 5 of the century that's all.

 

[h_hurricane]

Yeah, Warne being one of the top 5 cricketers of the 20th century at the half way point of his career was massive overrating. To think about it, Marshall(arguably the greatest quick of all time) and no less important to an ATG side just like Warne was no where close to the top in that exercise.

 

[Malcolm]

Well, Warne revived the dying art of leg spin.

 

[h_hurricane]

Well, Warne revived the dying art of leg spin.

When you are judging the top 5 cricketers of a century, a massive weightage needs to be given to their overall records, their performance in all conditions they came across, how they fared against the team best equipped to handle them etc. Warne at the end of career(let alone in 2000 when he was barely half way through) is not a top 5 material. He is a good shout for top 10-15 though.

This reviving an art thing is sort of over heard and over-rated. It does not help you to win matches in the middle. Warne is great because he was one of the best leg spinners of all time not because he revived something.

 

[mr_mister]

He bowled the ball of the century

 

[h_hurricane]

He bowled the ball of the century

One of the main reasons for overrating him. Came against Gatting, a decent player of spin.

Edit: He also spun a couple of deliveries outside leg to hit the stumps of Sidhu and Dravid in 1998, a couple of dream deliveries. However, he is rightly remembered for a poor series,not for producing 2 gems once the series was lost.