***Official*** English Football Season 2018-19

[Cabinet96]

If we're mentioning players whose body prevented them being in the conversation then van Persie has to be involved.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Uppercut is right about Bergkamp now that I think about it, but it's not something I had really thought of before. By far the most memorable thing he did for Arsenal in an important game, off the top of my head, was missing the stoppage time penalty in 1999. Maybe it's just because he just didn't do anything against United but then again for pretty much the entirety of Bergkamp's Arsenal career, the games vs United were the biggest as far as deciding silverware goes.

I used to think Cantona was underrated by non-United fans and overrated by United fans but now I just think he's a bit underrated. There has become a bit of a perception (IMO), even amongst younger United fans that he was just the right fit at the right time and owed much of his (and our) success to 'aura'/'presence'/whatever. It overlooks that he was a genuine gun. I watch a sad amount of extended highlights of old games on YouTube and it really stands out just how good he was. His vision and passing were excellent. Read somewhere recently that, until quite recently, he had the best assists to games ratio in the PL era (don't know who is now beating him). That said, I don't think he would be considered a striker if he played today.

I was going to say that the answer is still surely Henry but on reflection I'm getting less and less sure of that. It's either him or Aguero anyway, IMO. Shearer 3rd.

 

[Tom Halsey]

Cantona won a title virtually on his own that one year, always seemed to pop up with the vital goal in a tight match.

This is true to a large extent, but Schmeichel was at least as important in that title win. Cantona did score the winner in an unusual amount of 1-0 wins in the run-in, but in several of those, most notably the game at St James' Park, his goal would have been the consolation goal in a heavy defeat but for Schmeichel. I have still never seen a goalkeeping performance match that one since. Tim Krul came quite close with one random performance against, I think, Spurs about 5-6 years ago.

 

[Andy1993]

Gordon Banks has passed away overnight at the age of 81 RIP

 

[sledger]

Bergkamp counts if Rooney counts imo.

He might be the most beautiful player on the list. He was somewhere between a footballer and a master artist.

Might just be my memory but I don’t remember him doing us too much damage. I remember a lot of ridiculously good Bergkamp goals but I can’t think of many important ones. Not for Arsenal anyway.

Kane is almost the opposite, he looks so little like a world-class footballer that most people didn’t realise until he’d scored 100 goals.

Haha I swear when we had this discussion before a few years ago you said how overrated Bergkamp was.

 

[Uppercut]

Haha I swear when we had this discussion before a few years ago you said how overrated Bergkamp was.

Haha someone else in the thread was probably overrating him at the time. Possibly you.

 

[Johnners]

Watching City/Chelsea highlights, wtf was Alonso up to on the first goal.

 

[sledger]

Haha someone else in the thread was probably overrating him at the time. Possibly you.

Haha quite likely I suspect.

Anyway, Bergkamp definitely a scorer of great, but often fairly unimportant goals.

The main thing he brought to the table was his link-up play and passing though. From a technical point of view he was absolutely excellent. Played the 10 role in an era where the 10 role was not really used by many teams.

 

[Uppercut]

Haha quite likely I suspect.

Anyway, Bergkamp definitely a scorer of great, but often fairly unimportant goals.

The main thing he brought to the table was his link-up play and passing though. From a technical point of view he was absolutely excellent. Played the 10 role in an era where the 10 role was not really used by many teams.

Yeah I mean he was unbelievable to watch, and that's not to say he wasn't effective. I think he had the best first touch in PL history.

I don't think my opinion of him has changed, I just wouldn't express it as strongly. Some people value Bergkamp's qualities very highly, which is fine. Ashley Cole was on MNF a while back picking his combined Chelsea/Arsenal XI and Carragher had a complete meltdown when he went for Drogba over Bergkamp.

That said, when people say they rank Ronaldo over Messi I immediately judge them as footballing airheads. Modern equivalent of people who ranked Ruud over Henry.

 

[sledger]

Yeah I mean he was unbelievable to watch, and that's not to say he wasn't effective. I think he had the best first touch in PL history.

I don't think my opinion of him has changed, I just wouldn't express it as strongly. Some people value Bergkamp's qualities very highly, which is fine. Ashley Cole was on MNF a while back picking his combined Chelsea/Arsenal XI and Carragher had a complete meltdown when he went for Drogba over Bergkamp.

That said, when people say they rank Ronaldo over Messi I immediately judge them as footballing airheads. Modern equivalent of people who ranked Ruud over Henry.

Haha, the Scaly classic.

Anyway yeah, the biggest compliment that can be paid to Bergkamp really is that if you had a 26 year old version of him now you could plug in straight into a top side and he'd look right at home. The game has moved on since the days he was around, but he would be just as good/effective now as he was back then, and there are so many players from the 90s/early 00s you could not say that of.

 

[Uppercut]

Haha, the Scaly classic.

Anyway yeah, the biggest compliment that can be paid to Bergkamp really is that if you had a 26 year old version of him now you could plug in straight into a top side and he'd look right at home. The game has moved on since the days he was around, but he would be just as good/effective now as he was back then, and there are so many players from the 90s/early 00s you could not say that of.

I think he might be a target man/false nine hybrid today, hardly anyone plays with a 10 any more. The best one I can think of that's starting regularly this season is James Maddison. Maybe Dele Alli if you're generous with the definition of 10.

Playing technical football is easy today, the pitches are perfect and defenders aren't allowed to kick you any more. Bergkamp did it when hardly anyone else could.

 

[sledger]

Tbf when I said 10 role it was just the closest thing I could think of. He kind of just played his own role. I've never really known a player who does exactly what he did in quite the same way.

 

[vcs]

The Ronaldo-Messi debate has got a lot closer over the last few years TBF. At some point, you've got to acknowledge the numbers that Ronaldo is putting up and his relentless bossing of CL knockout matches.

I mean, if you go by watchability and ability to produce amazing moments, I think the Brazilian Ronaldo outstrips the Portuguese one. But career-wise, it's not that close between them any more.

 

[sledger]

Some of these are just ridiculous. Especially the outside of the foot ones.

No wonder both Henry and Ian Wright cite him as their favourite person to play with. Delivery was so good that basically all you needed to think about was finishing it off.

 

[sledger]

The Ronaldo-Messi debate has got a lot closer over the last few years TBF. At some point, you've got to acknowledge the numbers that Ronaldo is putting up and his relentless bossing of CL knockout matches.

I mean, if you go by watchability and ability to produce amazing moments, I think the Brazilian Ronaldo outstrips the Portuguese one. But career-wise, it's not that close between them any more.

Ronaldo an exceptional athlete who is very good at football. Messi and the other Ronaldo are/were just exceptional footballers.

 

[Uppercut]

Some of these are just ridiculous. Especially the outside of the foot ones.

No wonder both Henry and Ian Wright cite him as their favourite person to play with. Delivery was so good that basically all you needed to think about was finishing it off.

Passing isn't important at all though, according to Ronaldo Truthers.

 

[sledger]

Yeah. I guess prolificness (is that a word?) has always been used to overrate players, or inflate their ability in relation to others who aren't as prolific but have so much more to them than just thumping in goals from 30 yards, but it's kind of taken on a mind of its own/been taken to a whole new level with the Ronaldo/Messi debate.

 

[sledger]

Some of these are just ridiculous. Especially the outside of the foot ones.

No wonder both Henry and Ian Wright cite him as their favourite person to play with. Delivery was so good that basically all you needed to think about was finishing it off.

That one at 3.25 is hypnotic. Can't stop watching it. The way he so smoothly moves the ball around, under total control, moving it exactly where he wants. The ball literally looks like it is gliding. It's almost like you're watching FIFA or something. Silkiness of that level just does not exist in real life.

 

[Uppercut]

Yeah. I guess prolificness (is that a word?) has always been used to overrate players, or inflate their ability in relation to others who aren't as prolific but have so much more to them than just thumping in goals from 30 yards, but it's kind of taken on a mind of its own/been taken to a whole new level with the Ronaldo/Messi debate.

Messi is more prolific over his career than Ronaldo though, just like Henry was more prolific than Ruud.

In both cases a lot of people settled on a sort of "sensible centre-ground" where "one is the better all-round footballer, the other is the better goalscorer". But it was never true. The better all-round footballer was also the better goalscorer.

 

[sledger]

Yeah, fair.