*Official* India Tour of New Zealand 2019

[thundaboult]

If Chris Morris banged Miles Teller you'd get Blair Tickner

 

[wellAlbidarned]

there is literally zero that NZC or Kuggs can do here except sit back, not anything stupid, and wait for this **** to die down. Any comment regarding it will be spun into a media frenzy which will make everything worse.

 

[shifty_eyes]

So New Zealand's Fakhar Zaman is set for the world cup.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

there is literally zero that NZC or Kuggs can do here except sit back, not anything stupid, and wait for this **** to die down. Any comment regarding it will be spun into a media frenzy which will make everything worse.

Now it probably is a no-win situation, but I still think they should do something. Imagine the good Kuggeleijn and NZC could do by using this to educate younger fans and create awareness around consent issues. If they had front-footed it at the time, given a chance for something like that to happen as well as a suspension of a certain amount of time for bringing the game into disrepute, and even given Kuggeliejn a chance to apologise, I can guarantee we wouldn’t be seeing what we’re seeing now.

I have to say, between this, the “$50 match fee for an away game” women’s super smash player payments and the banner confiscations, NZC is looking archaic. It was a real missed opportunity for them to show what they stand for as an organization with female players/volunteers/fans/officials/employees, I think.

 

[Zinzan]

there is literally zero that NZC or Kuggs can do here except sit back, not anything stupid, and wait for this **** to die down. Any comment regarding it will be spun into a media frenzy which will make everything worse.

Well said. I notice these stupid stuff.co.nz publishers write a different article about him/NZC everyweek. The lad has been through due process, & it's time to move on. He's been publicly shamed already, so a massive lol at anyone suggesting he's had it easy in any way whotsoever. It's been a horrible situation for all concerned.

He doesn't owe these shrieking jump-on-the-bandwagon writers anything at this point.

Hope this thing can die fast and the lad goes on to have a steller career, he certainly has the talent, & I'm sure most would agree he seems to have more to offer as an all-rounder than Doug "I had one legendary moment 8 years ago & nothing since" Bracewell.

 

[Zinzan]

I have to say, between this, the “$50 match fee for an away game” women’s super smash player payments and the banner confiscations, NZC is looking archaic. It was a real missed opportunity for them to show what they stand for as an organization with female players/volunteers/fans/officials/employees, I think.

Sorry what about the womens super smash player payments? Please don't tell me you're arguing they get paid the same as the men (or even anything close) like they now do in tennis, in spite of not being as good and playing 3 sets vs. 5. Farsical situation.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

Sorry what about the womens super smash player payments? Please don't tell me you're arguing they get paid the same as the men (or even anything close) like they now do in tennis, in spite of not being as good and playing 3 sets vs. 5. Farsical situation.

Calm down, I just think they should get more than $50 per match.

 

[Zinzan]

Calm down, I just think they should get more than $50 per match.

Fair enough, I agree $50 is stingy.

 

[Flem274*]

nzc throw a player under the bus? surely you people jest

From reading the case and the court decision, it doesn't seem like he did anything criminally wrong at all. Morally though?

Yeah...

i'd have to look again to remember the exact quote but when i read them originally, and again when he was selected just to be sure before i opened my mouth, i was very very surprised he got off. i'm no lawyer obviously, but when lawyers fall back on the tactics his did it looks like absolute desperation.

i think if it was one of us we'd be found guilty.

he was found not guilty, so he has a right to a job. likewise, this is a country with free speech (as i hear all about in the politics subbie when the alt right stories surface) which means madeleine chapman is allowed to display her banners showing her distaste for kugglejuggles lack of moral action.

it's no different, imo, to withdraw support of a player because they cheated on their wife, acted like a **** to a supermarket employee or because they are chris "totally not mr x" cairns.

5 years ago i'd want kugglejuggles head on a spike because i was quite absolutist. despite my private views on his guilt and quality as a human being, people can do morally wrong things and still do good, kind things later in life as well. they're also allowed jobs. i guess we'll have to wait and see how kugglejuggle lives his life from now on because he'll be one of the most scrutinised nz players ever.

 

[Mike5181]

nzc throw a player under the bus? surely you people jest

i'd have to look again to remember the exact quote but when i read them originally, and again when he was selected just to be sure before i opened my mouth, i was very very surprised he got off. i'm no lawyer obviously, but when lawyers fall back on the tactics his did it looks like absolute desperation.

i think if it was one of us we'd be found guilty.

he was found not guilty, so he has a right to a job. likewise, this is a country with free speech (as i hear all about in the politics subbie when the alt right stories surface) which means madeleine chapman is allowed to display her banners showing her distaste for kugglejuggles lack of moral action.

it's no different, imo, to withdraw support of a player because they cheated on their wife, acted like a **** to a supermarket employee or because they are chris "totally not mr x" cairns.

5 years ago i'd want kugglejuggles head on a spike because i was quite absolutist. despite my private views on his guilt and quality as a human being, people can do morally wrong things and still do good, kind things later in life as well. they're also allowed jobs. i guess we'll have to wait and see how kugglejuggle lives his life from now on because he'll be one of the most scrutinised nz players ever.

I think this is a bit unfair, mainly because Scott was never going to get fair unbiased coverage on stuff.co.nz, nzherald, etc. Are we sure the prosecution didn't use some pretty terrible arguments/tactics to establish Scott as a rapist?

 

[Zinzan]

nzc throw a player under the bus? surely you people jest

i'd have to look again to remember the exact quote but when i read them originally, and again when he was selected just to be sure before i opened my mouth, i was very very surprised he got off. i'm no lawyer obviously, but when lawyers fall back on the tactics his did it looks like absolute desperation.

i think if it was one of us we'd be found guilty.

he was found not guilty, so he has a right to a job. likewise, this is a country with free speech (as i hear all about in the politics subbie when the alt right stories surface) which means madeleine chapman is allowed to display her banners showing her distaste for kugglejuggles lack of moral action.

it's no different, imo, to withdraw support of a player because they cheated on their wife, acted like a **** to a supermarket employee or because they are chris "totally not mr x" cairns.

5 years ago i'd want kugglejuggles head on a spike because i was quite absolutist. despite my private views on his guilt and quality as a human being, people can do morally wrong things and still do good, kind things later in life as well. they're also allowed jobs. i guess we'll have to wait and see how kugglejuggle lives his life from now on because he'll be one of the most scrutinised nz players ever.

Good post this, & most definitely not something I could have imagined from you 3-4 years ago.

On the point of Madeleine Chapman, I'm not sure it stops at free speech if she's actually going to the venues. These are private/paid events, which means NZC/The applicable ground management/security (of combination of the 3) have every right to ban such protest, if they feel it could lead to trouble or even diminish their event (I'm guessing).

 

[jcas0167]

Good post this, & most definitely not something I could have imagined from you 3-4 years ago.

On the point of Madeleine Chapman, I'm not sure it stops at free speech if she's actually going to the venues. These are private/paid events, which means NZC/The applicable ground management/security (of combination of the 3) have every right to ban such protest, if they feel it could lead to trouble or even diminish their event (I'm guessing).

Yes, you don't have free speech at venues. They tend to remove banners that target individual players or make political points. I remember one saying "Amir, can you fix my car?" didn't last long.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

Now it probably is a no-win situation, but I still think they should do something. Imagine the good Kuggeleijn and NZC could do by using this to educate younger fans and create awareness around consent issues. If they had front-footed it at the time, given a chance for something like that to happen as well as a suspension of a certain amount of time for bringing the game into disrepute, and even given Kuggeliejn a chance to apologise, I can guarantee we wouldn’t be seeing what we’re seeing now.

I have to say, between this, the “$50 match fee for an away game” women’s super smash player payments and the banner confiscations, NZC is looking archaic. It was a real missed opportunity for them to show what they stand for as an organization with female players/volunteers/fans/officials/employees, I think.

consent issues is such a disputed and complex area I don't think there's any sense in a sporting organisation touching it with a fifty foot pole. Two young adults get off their ****, flirt all night, and end up in the same bed. No one else witnessed what happened after that. What exactly are we meant to reasonably conclude?

think flem's post nails it

 

[The Hutt Rec]

consent issues is such a disputed and complex area I don't think there's any sense in a sporting organisation touching it with a fifty foot pole. Two young adults get off their ****, flirt all night, and end up in the same bed. No one else witnessed what happened after that. What exactly are we meant to reasonably conclude?

think flem's post nails it

They’re pretty simple tbh, no means no. Doesn’t get simpler.

 

[straw man]

Didn’t mean to start it all up again sorry. I just switched off the tv after that post. Was amazed to see later that Southee bowled a restrictive final over, maybe I’ve been jinxing him all this time.

But on Kuggs I really think NZ Cricket have hung him out to dry at this stage, with their cone of silence. It’s also not nice to see him being public enemy number one for the entire country. They haven’t given him a chance to make amends or redeem himself in the public eye.

I obviously don’t like the guy, but NZC could have written the bible on how not to handle it.

Don't think there's any need to apologise - it's clearly a relevant current topic. You get blowback like that spiteful little comment from veganbob for expressing your own feelings on the matter but it's absolutely valid to be unimpressed with the whole thing.

Yep, the approach they've gone for (waiting a couple of years and hoping that everyone just forgets about it) might've worked a decade or so ago, but in the current political climate you'd have to be supremely naïve to think that there wouldn't be a massive blowback as a result of his selection. The fact that the NZC did nothing in anticipation of this would be hilarious if it wasn't so embarrassing and sad.

Strongly agree - if NZC think Kuggeleijn is someone they want to pick, who is a reasonable person to be representing the country, then they needed to rehabilitate him in the public eye i.e. organise a press conference or two with Kuggeleijn speaking, release a statement, have him show remorse. Are they that dense and narrow that they thought this would merely go by the wayside? I suppose they probably are, given the CEO and his stunted and evasive response to the Taylor captaincy affair.

 

[straw man]

there is literally zero that NZC or Kuggs can do here except sit back, not anything stupid, and wait for this **** to die down. Any comment regarding it will be spun into a media frenzy which will make everything worse.

Strongly disagree - even now, to address the issue would be better than to just leave it and hope it goes away. The purpose of addressing it is not to stop absolutely every last piece of criticism and to get every single person onside, which would be an impossible goal as you suggest. Instead it's to rehabilitate in the public eye so that the majority of cricket followers see that this is a human being that you can be proud is representing your country (if that is indeed the case).

 

[TheBrand]

Best thing for NZC is to actually address it to the public - which I don't think they have done and any feeble attempts so far have been buried at the end of other articles.

I guess my main issue is knowing people who have been the victim of rape/***ual assault, it is incredibly hard to prove in a court of law. It's a reason why many victims choose not to come forward as often the court cases turn into "he said, she said" situations.

I think it's important to note that "not guilty" is a pretty wide spectrum - i.e. there was evidence to prove that he was innocent that removes all doubt, or alternatively, there is not enough evidence to convict (he said, she said) and therefore not guilty. I know in the first trial the jury couldn't reach a verdict. From what I've read of the second trial it sounds like the latter reason is true as well.

In a time where the female game is bigger than it has ever been, NZC are really missing the boat on turning this into a positive message about consent. If Kuggeleijn fronted the media and showed some remorse about his actions I think a lot of people would be satisfied by that. Could even spin it that he's a family man now etc etc

Plus on an unrelated note: haven't actually been that impressed with him in the games he's played. Good finisher with the bat, but far too wayward with the ball imo.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

Is Hardik still hard?

 

[thierry henry]

I honestly can't think of anyone in the recent social climate who rehabilitated his image by responding to allegations of a ***ual nature. I just don't think there's any way to do it. It sucks that it's like this, but it's basically impossible for Kuggeleijn to do anything that will have the nett effect of improving his situation.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

They’re pretty simple tbh, no means no. Doesn’t get simpler.

Probably arguing this to the wrong crowd, but I have spoken to multiple women who openly disagree. Teasing rejection is an effective way to weed out insecure guys.

I honestly can't think of anyone in the recent social climate who rehabilitated his image by responding to allegations of a ***ual nature. I just don't think there's any way to do it. It sucks that it's like this, but it's basically impossible for Kuggeleijn to do anything that will have the nett effect of improving his situation.

Making a statement or apology about it now will be essentially taken as a statement of guilt. Seeing as he was found not guilty, I'm not sure why on earth that would be a sensible move for him.