*Official* England Tour of West Indies 2019

[Cow]

Flintoff 2004 to 2006 was the best fast bowler in the world. McGrath had a terrible haircut during this period.

 

[Stefan9]

There's a risk of forgetting Holder's less memorable performances amongst all this. Like between 2014-16, Holder's bowling average was 41 and his batting average was 28.6. Even if you expand it to January 2018, the batting average is 29 and the bowling average is 38.52. For the talk of Flintoff only being good for short periods, the same can be said for Holder.

If you want to compare first three years of international cricket...Flintoff's first 3 years , batting average of 13.63 and bowling average of 44.15.

 

[Stefan9]

I never mentioned Holder’s batting, I was referring to Freddie’s batting in relation to his bowling.

I’m fairly certain the likes of Ponting, Langer, Gilchrist aren’t basing their judgements on a single series where Freddie may have peaked. I’m not disregarding stats at all, I’m saying they don’t always tell the whole story and there was much more to Flintoff than what his stats show.

Stats are the only unbiased measurement of a players performance. Opinions are always biased.

 

[Woodster]

Stats are the only unbiased measurement of a players performance. Opinions are always biased.

Stats can be manipulated to serve whichever side of the argument you're on. I don't doubt they can be a valuable tool, but a full and final judgement cannot be made purely from the numbers, imo.

 

[Woodster]

'I would understand if I was dropped for Antigua Test' - Ben Foakes | ESPNcricinfo.com

Not sure I'd be quite so understanding. I appreciate there is fierce for competition for the keeper/batsman role but Foakes was Man of the Series in Sri Lanka, yes he was below par in the opening Test here, but he deserves his place having shown his ability with the bat and is widely acknowledge as the finest gloveman we have.

Bairstow's form in the last 12 months does not really demand a Test spot (averaging around 30), although he is currently batting out of position on this tour. I'm a fan of Bairstow and he is probably one of our best batsmen despite his recent average so I'd have no problem with all three being selected again.

Jos Buttler has unbelievable talent, he has to stay in the side for me.

 

[harsh.ag]

Instead of tinkering with the batting, first make sure you don't go in with just 1 genuine pacer.

 

[Woodster]

Instead of tinkering with the batting, first make sure you don't go in with just 1 genuine pacer.

Yep, the batsmen did a sterling job in the opener!

 

[the big bambino]

Stats can be manipulated to serve whichever side of the argument you're on. I don't doubt they can be a valuable tool, but a full and final judgement cannot be made purely from the numbers, imo.

Maybe so but an opinion can’t generally stand in opposition to statistics. They can embellish and enlighten them but mostly conform.

 

[andmark]

If you want to compare first three years of international cricket...Flintoff's first 3 years , batting average of 13.63 and bowling average of 44.15.

But that's my point. People seem to be saying Holder is better based on a short period, perhaps as short as a year for some people which is obviously a poor indicator of the overall quality of a player.

 

[Beamer]

They definitely shouldn't decide on that basis but think they might as there is a lot of politics involved. Ticket sales amongst locals will be higher if one of their own is playing. They should try to produce a simular pitch and go with 4 seamers and chase again. If they do and we select broad then it will make for a fantastic test

Agreed. If they really wanted to boost local ticket sales they would pick Rakheem Cornwall, he is insanely popular in Antigua.

 

[Beamer]

But that's my point. People seem to be saying Holder is better based on a short period, perhaps as short as a year for some people which is obviously a poor indicator of the overall quality of a player.

I feel this article on Holder is instructive on his performances. Basically he's had a brilliant 18 months. Lets see how he goes moving forward. It should be noted that he is also a great leader and has had to carry that burden.

 

[Woodster]

Maybe so but an opinion can’t generally stand in opposition to statistics. They can embellish and enlighten them but mostly conform.

You can filter stats to suit an argument without telling the whole picture.

I love stats, I think they are an important tool, but they don't always tell the whole story. You can make a strong case for the quality of a batsman because he averages 45 (for example) but look into those stats and he's actually feasted in his own conditions against lesser sides such as Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, etc, with a small sample size.

Stats are vital but they must read properly and not always taken at face value.

 

[andmark]

I feel this article on Holder is instructive on his performances. Basically he's had a brilliant 18 months. Lets see how he goes moving forward. It should be noted that he is also a great leader and has had to carry that burden.

That was an interesting article, and yeah I agree with you. He has indeed been great in that period, and his leadership speaks for itself. That said, it's still too short a period to compare him to a player with a 11 year career. I think and hope he will end up being better than Flintoff, and will do if he can keep the sort of numbers in the article up, but it's too early to say he already is better.

 

[Beamer]

That was an interesting article, and yeah I agree with you. He has indeed been great in that period, and his leadership speaks for itself. That said, it's still too short a period to compare him to a player with a 11 year career. I think and hope he will end up being better than Flintoff, and will do if he can keep the sort of numbers in the article up, but it's too early to say he already is better.

I agree with your points. TBh I was just annoyed with Freddie being such a pat pat pat and making disparaging comments, so I made the comparison.

 

[Beamer]

In other news we've kept the same squad, but added Oshane Thomas officially, not just as back up. I wonder if they're considering bringing him in for a 5 pace attack? Now that would be fun

 

[andmark]

I agree with your points. TBh I was just annoyed with Freddie being such a pat pat pat and making disparaging comments, so I made the comparison.

Yeah, his comments were, to be frank, plain stupid.

 

[the big bambino]

You can filter stats to suit an argument without telling the whole picture.

I love stats, I think they are an important tool, but they don't always tell the whole story. You can make a strong case for the quality of a batsman because he averages 45 (for example) but look into those stats and he's actually feasted in his own conditions against lesser sides such as Zimbabwe, Bangladesh, etc, with a small sample size.

Stats are vital but they must read properly and not always taken at face value.

I agree and I’m not a fan of the overall stat. But when you do drill down into a players record the thing that will tell you whether he is a home ground player or has trouble with certain bowling types or conditions is again his stats.

 

[Woodster]

I agree and I’m not a fan of the overall stat. But when you do drill down into a players record the thing that will tell you whether he is a home ground player or has trouble with certain bowling types or conditions is again his stats.

Yes but looking at them in depth tells us much more than overall stats. I'll re-iterate, I think stats are a vital tool in judging a player but it's dangerous to do so based solely on the numbers. Those big moments when you need a player to stand up and produce something special and get your team back into the game is difficult to put into numbers.

 

[Woodster]

It was a rather disparaging comment from Freddie, I'm slightly surprised he put that out there.

 

[the big bambino]

Yes but looking at them in depth tells us much more than overall stats. I'll re-iterate, I think stats are a vital tool in judging a player but it's dangerous to do so based solely on the numbers. Those big moments when you need a player to stand up and produce something special and get your team back into the game is difficult to put into numbers.

Actually you can quantity those moments too.