*Official* Sri Lanka Tour of New Zealand 2018/19

[Flem274*]

only if you're relying on swing bowling, and in those cases it's the top six doing the vast majority of the damage, probably top 4 even since 400 requires wickets in hand. you're also far more likely to concede 400 (and lose the game) with a lightweight attack relying on semi-bowlers to sneak through 10.

it doesn't work anymore. you need 5 real bowlers and when one of them is the best #7 option anyway (santner), another is a good #8 (sodhi), and we have a collection of decent #9s (southee, henry, bracewell) then it would be mental not to take advantage of the 5 real bowler balance.

 

[Athlai]

Santner is not be the best #7 option. Neesham is.

Our best XI would be something like

Guptill
Munro/Latham
Williamson
Taylor
Nicholls
Latham/CDG
Neesham
Santner
Bowler
Bowler
Bowler

40 overs from the bowlers and 10 overs out of Neesham + Munro (or CDG) with Williamson rolling an arm if he has to.

Since 2015, our number 8 has to bat in 70% of all our games.

You call Sodhi a good ODI #8 but he has never actually batted there for New Zealand. Since 2015 Santner/NcCullum/CDG/Vettori/Bracewell/Watling/Devcich/Tastle/Munro have batted at 8 in 83% of our innings. The majority of the remainder is Southee, with the odd innings from Wheeler, Milne and Henry.


Sodhi rarely has even batted as high as 9, where typically we've batted Southee. Sodhi also averages 11.03 in all List A cricket with the bat. Sodhi at 8 is crazy.

 

[Prince EWS]

Since 2015, our number 8 has to bat in 70% of all our games.

And what percentage of games have you used at least five bowlers in?

 

[Flem274*]

And what percentage of games have you used at least five bowlers in?

nailed it in one sentence

this recent obsession with batting at the expense of everything else is crazy.

teams that try to sneak 10 overs of trash in are rightly put to slaughter in the modern game.

 

[OverratedSanity]

India have gotten away with using Kedar Jadhav for a while now. It'll bite them in the ass at the WC imo, but there's no doubt that so far it's not been punished.

 

[Prince EWS]

India have gotten away with using Kedar Jadhav for a while now. It'll bite them in the ass at the WC imo, but there's no doubt that so far it's not been punished.

He's the sixth bowler anyway, it's fine IMO.

 

[OverratedSanity]

He's the sixth bowler anyway, it's fine IMO.

Sure he's the sixth bowler but the point is he has bowled a not insignificant number of overs and the batsmen havent smashed him like you would expect, showing that there's still room for some filth in the modern game.

 

[Athlai]

And what percentage of games have you used at least five bowlers in?

Worldwide its 75% of games use 6 or more

NZ 78%

 

[Prince EWS]

Worldwide its 75% of games use 6 or more

NZ 78%

Yep, so the sixth bowler is about as relevant as the 8th batsman. Agreed.

How relevant is the 5th bowler?

 

[Athlai]

Yep, so the sixth bowler is about as relevant as the 8th batsman. Agreed.

How relevant is the 5th bowler?

It isnt "relevant" usually what you see is that a Neesham or Anderson is entrusted with a full 10 because its a good day. Not that we didnt play a 6th bowler, nor did we play five "bowlers"

 

[Zinzan]

Santner is not be the best #7 option. Neesham is.

Our best XI would be something like

Guptill
Munro/Latham
Williamson
Taylor
Nicholls
Latham/CDG
Neesham
Santner
Bowler
Bowler
Bowler

Could we please just leave Latham at 5 & keeping? He's been successful there, had some excellent cake-like (excuse the '15 terminology) partnerships with Taylor (when we've really needed solidarity), and I don't think he's just a subcontinent specialist. He was very successful for Durham in white-ball cricket last year.

We have the same dilemma whether it's CGD, Anderson or Neesham as the no. 7 all-rounder, you cannot rely on either of the for 10 overs. Neesham may have turned the corner of late, but the jury's still out. Number 1 England bat down to 8, so I can see why it's tempting, but you do need the resources.

 

[Athlai]

Could we please just leave Latham at 5 & keeping? He's been successful there, had some excellent cake-like (excuse the '15 terminology) partnerships with Taylor (when we've really needed solidarity), and I don't think he's just a subcontinent specialist. He was very successful for Durham in white-ball cricket last year.

We have the same dilemma whether it's CGD, Anderson or Neesham as the no. 7 all-rounder, you cannot rely on either of the for 10 overs. Neesham may have turned the corner of late, but the jury's still out. Number 1 England bat down to 8, so I can see why it's tempting, but you do need the resources.

Yeah i personally dont subscribe to Latham opening at all, id be keeping Munro for lack of better options.

 

[Prince EWS]

Could we please just leave Latham at 5 & keeping? He's been successful there, had some excellent cake-like (excuse the '15 terminology) partnerships with Taylor (when we've really needed solidarity), and I don't think he's just a subcontinent specialist. He was very successful for Durham in white-ball cricket last year.

Not that I disagree with your overall point, but this definitely does not support it. He batted four in the 50 overs games and averaged 30. He did better in the T20 Blast but only after they made him open, which really just works against your argument.

 

[Zinzan]

Actually all four of our middle order options have good numbers in the last 2 years,

Latham averaging 34 @ 86
Nicholls 42 @ 97
GCD 36 @ 108 &;
Neesham 37 @ 117

We shouldn't discount the fact that Latham has got us out of trouble when looking at his SR compared to the others.

 

[Zinzan]

Yeah I sneakily broadened it to 'white-ball' cricket for that reason. I know it was their T20 comp he did especially well in, the bigger point was that he could be successful on English tracks.

 

[Prince EWS]

Yeah I sneakily broadened it to 'white-ball' cricket for that reason. I know it was their T20 comp he did especially well in, the bigger point was that he could be successful on English tracks.

Right but even if we bundle all white ball cricket together, the reality is that Latham was mediocre in white ball cricket while batting in the middle order, then did well after being pushed up to open.

I don't think this is reason enough to make him open in ODIs, but it's definitely not an argument in favour of him batting in the middle order.

 

[Flem274*]

i'm going to need a good explanation to be convinced cdg and neesham bowling 5 each with 40 overs of real bowlers is better than 50 overs of real bowlers when im not sure either of them actually average over 30 in odi cricket.

you need at least 5 bowlers in 100% of odis where you don't skittle the opposition first. if you need the #8 to be a batting allrounder rather than a balanced or bowling one then your top 6 sucks and you're not going to win the world cup anyway. go home.

the idea of cobbling together overs is a relic of the 90s and 00s where we could sneak through the middle overs with harris, styris, mcmillan and astle. incidentally, all of those bowlers except mcmillan are vastly superior to neesham and colin.

now it's bowl them out or concede 300-400. no one is chasing 400 in a real odi that matters unless the defending team fanatically subscribes to athlai theory. we won't be able to hide our part timers, and we have the options to not bother needing to try.

 

[TheBrand]

I think you're more likely to get 10 overs comfortably out of Neesham/CdG/KW/Munro. Rather than just 3 of that combo. My starting XI has no room for Nicholls at 6, you need that spot as an all rounder imo.

Gup
Munro
KW
Ross
Latham (wk)
Neesham
CdG
Santa
Henry/Southee
Ferguson/Sodhi
Boult

 

[Athlai]

I think you're more likely to get 10 overs comfortably out of Neesham/CdG/KW/Munro. Rather than just 3 of that combo. My starting XI has no room for Nicholls at 6, you need that spot as an all rounder imo.

Gup
Munro
KW
Ross
Latham (wk)
Neesham
CdG
Santa
Henry/Southee
Ferguson/Sodhi
Boult

I like this but harsh on Nicholls

 

[TheBrand]

Yeah I know it's harsh on Nicholls, but surely he's just cover for the top 5? Or if Munro really shits the bed, then move Latham up to open and Nicholls at 5.