SeamUp
International Coach
Nice call on Kourie. Think him, Eksteen, Harris had a few things in common. Height for bounce, not much turn but landing ball after ball on a ticky.
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South Africa team selection
- Thread starter StephenZA
- Start date
Dendarii
International Debutant
While Mulder is obviously the leading candidate for the allrounder that we haven't had for so long, I've been wondering about just how he would fit into the side.
Since Kallis retired we've played three seamers for the most part, and it's not as if we've really suffered from not having a fourth one. With Steyn fit again and the emergence of Ngidi and Olivier, the bowling depth is looking better than it's ever been, so whichever three seamers we pick are going to be cause havoc with the opposition. Granted, we're not always going to bundle the opposition out for under 200 as the pitches won't always be that helpful, but Maharaj does more than simply hold up an end, so while a fourth seamer would lessen the workload of the other quicks, how necessary is one really?
As for batting, does Mulder offer more with the bat than any of the other young players we've been keeping an eye on? If not, then is picking him really the right option?
Mulder's situation is different from an allrounder who is picked because he bats and bowls reasonably well but isn't quite up to scratch on either of them. I do think that he looks like a test quality player, but is he better than any of the specialists in their discipline, and if not then is there really a place for him? It's possibly a bit of a weird case of being good enough to play test cricket, but not good enough in the right way.
Or has my view been shaped by Pollock and Kallis, resulting in me using them as an impossibly high standard for any bowling or batting allrounder?
Since Kallis retired we've played three seamers for the most part, and it's not as if we've really suffered from not having a fourth one. With Steyn fit again and the emergence of Ngidi and Olivier, the bowling depth is looking better than it's ever been, so whichever three seamers we pick are going to be cause havoc with the opposition. Granted, we're not always going to bundle the opposition out for under 200 as the pitches won't always be that helpful, but Maharaj does more than simply hold up an end, so while a fourth seamer would lessen the workload of the other quicks, how necessary is one really?
As for batting, does Mulder offer more with the bat than any of the other young players we've been keeping an eye on? If not, then is picking him really the right option?
Mulder's situation is different from an allrounder who is picked because he bats and bowls reasonably well but isn't quite up to scratch on either of them. I do think that he looks like a test quality player, but is he better than any of the specialists in their discipline, and if not then is there really a place for him? It's possibly a bit of a weird case of being good enough to play test cricket, but not good enough in the right way.
Or has my view been shaped by Pollock and Kallis, resulting in me using them as an impossibly high standard for any bowling or batting allrounder?
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StephenZA
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
All rounders are useful, but ideally you would like them to get into the team on their primary ability. I believe you pick your best 6 batsmen a wk and best 4 bowlers for the conditions. Having said all that I like Mulder at 6 because I think he has the ability and technique to be a world class batsmen. Maybe he needs to be given time, but I think he is as good as any to bat at number 6 for SA. Makes me think of McMillan. He will never make it into the SA team on his bowling.
SeamUp
International Coach
Yup, Wiaan Mulder is a potential world class batsman. Sound technique. Compact. Good defence and has a wide range of strokes. I also think he can be adaptable to conditions because when I've seen him he looks like he knows what it is to let the ball come to him which is rare for highveld batsman these days. We could even say he is the most talented young batsman in the country. So he will get into our top 6 on his batting. Pretty confident about that.
Dendarii
International Debutant
That's how I feel, which is why I raised the question. Is Mulder better or at least on par with the other names we've thrown around as future batsmen (Breetzke, Qeshile, Rickleton, Richards, Van Tonder, etc.)? If he is then his selection is a no-brainer, but if he's not quite as good then should he be picked?
He does have a first-class average of 40, but you never know how much of South African first-class figures is at franchise level and whether the figures have been boosted by the 3-day competition. All I've seen of him so far has been in ODIs, which doesn't appear to be his best format with either bat or ball, and isn't the best way to judge his suitability for test cricket. So I was curious as to just how good his batting is.
Standards too high, whether or not Mulder can achieve them. As long as he's comparable to the specialist he's competing with, I think it's a good idea. Plenty of surfaces Maharaj is ineffective 1st innings on, and some that the entire attack is ineffective. Fresh legs, long term workload, injuries in particular games etc.
What was it that seperated kouries bowling average from these guys?
SeamUp
International Coach
Would say he was just a better bowler than them.
1.) Paul Harris tended to under-cut the ball and more so when it wasn't coming out right.
2.) Clive Eksteen I always thought could be a touch slow through the air and his approach to the wicket was so slow and hoppy it was tough to get zip driving around the front foot.
I think Kourie had a more classical action and with his drive through his action he could get more zip if he wanted to but his action suited to the over-spin required at Wanderers. Also had an ability to change pace extremely well with the same arm speed.
Some real magic to him to average so far ahead of everyone in recent decades, or just that everyone else has stunk?
GRAB
First Class Debutant
Top 10 franchise-only batting averages (test available, min 10 innings):
1. Markram 57,8 in 12 games
2. J Malan 51,1 in 6 games
3. T de Bruyn 51,0 in 38 games
4. Mulder 49,5 in 13 games
5. Van biljon 47,6 in 30 games
6. Hamza 47,6 in 19 games
7. Amla 46,1 in 44 games
8. Agathangelou 45,9 in 9 games (most of his FC career is 3 day and county)
9. Lubbe 44,5 in 6 games
10. Verreyne 44,1 in 16 games
[Elgar 11, Bavuma 14, du Plessis 22, de Kock 27
So so far in his short career Mulder is definitely up there performance-wise. Lubbe is the other all-rounder in the top 10, but that's a really small sample size...
1. Markram 57,8 in 12 games
2. J Malan 51,1 in 6 games
3. T de Bruyn 51,0 in 38 games
4. Mulder 49,5 in 13 games
5. Van biljon 47,6 in 30 games
6. Hamza 47,6 in 19 games
7. Amla 46,1 in 44 games
8. Agathangelou 45,9 in 9 games (most of his FC career is 3 day and county)
9. Lubbe 44,5 in 6 games
10. Verreyne 44,1 in 16 games
[Elgar 11, Bavuma 14, du Plessis 22, de Kock 27
So so far in his short career Mulder is definitely up there performance-wise. Lubbe is the other all-rounder in the top 10, but that's a really small sample size...
How does Mulder work here? FC average of 40 in 17 games. Which must mean he averages 15 or whatever in 2nd tier
GRAB
First Class Debutant
Actually, it's his performances for SA A dragging things down...
M I NO R F H
Lions 13 20 6 693 2 2
Gauteng 1 1 0 45 0 0
SA A 3 6 0 102 0 0
SeamUp
International Coach
It's a tough one. He was very good. For rebel tours, they always used to talk Alan Kourie up for the visitors because he was rated so highly. Also got to remember someone like Mike Procter says he felt Denys Hobson may have been the best spinner (or was it leg-spinner) in the world for a period. They were the main two. Of course Kourie did have the 'Mean Machine' to bowl with. When you bowl amongst Vince van der Bijl, Spook Hanley, Sylvester Clarke, Neal Radford & Hugh Page they may try take risks.
Just out of interest.
Was actually looking at scorecards from about the 83-84 season. Spin bowling was massively prevalent in our teams.
Teams around then
WESTERN PROVINCE (from 13 but often 3 spinners played)
Graham Gooch (118 tests for England)
Lawrence Seeff
Peter Kirsten (c)
Ken McEwan
Roy Pienaar
Adrian Kuiper
Stephen Jefferies
Omar Henry (slow left-arm spin)
John Emburey (right-arm off-spin) (64 tests for England)
Richie Ryall (wk)
Denys Hobson (right-arm leg-spin)
Eric Simons (moved to Northern Transvaal the next season to play games and returned to be WP captain)
Garth Le Roux
* Allan Lamb had stopped playing in SA for a little while and got England debut in 1982
TRANSVAAL (from 12)
Jimmy Cook
Henry Fotheringham
Alvin Kallicharran (66 test for Windies)
Graeme Pollock
Clive Rice (c)
Kevin McKenzie
Alan Kourie (slow-left-arm spin)
Ray Jennings (wk)
Neal Radford (3 tests for England via Zambia/Northern Rhodesia)
Sylvester Clarke (11 test for Windies- Mad )
Spook Hanley
Hugh Page
Final: Western Province v Transvaal at Cape Town, 24-27 Feb 1984
All the eligible above played for SA rebels or SA on re-admission bar Richie Ryall.
But you go Cook (TVL), Fotheringham (TVL), P.Kirsten (WP), G.Pollock (TVL), McEwan (WP), Rice (TVL), Kourie (TVL), Jefferies (WP), Le Roux (WP), Jennings (TVL), Hobson (WP) 12th McKenzie (TVL)
Natal lost Fotheringham
EP/Border lost McEwan/G.Pollock/Hobson
This was around the time of the 2 West Indian rebel tours. Most of the SA squad was chosen from the two best teams above. SA rebel players from below would include Kenny Watson & Titch Smith who played previously with Mandy Yachad & Dave Richardson debuting on these tours .
Only later v Australia did Brian Whitfield from below get a call-up. Think Trevor Madsen too. Tim Shaw played ODIs for SA on re-admission.
The other 3 teams
EASTERN PROVINCE
Ian Daniell
Wayne Larkins (13 tests for England)
Robert Armitage (right-arm off-spin)
Ian Howell (wk)
Peter Willey (right-arm off-spin) (26 tests for England)
Dave Emslie
Terance Reid/David Brickett
Gavin Cowley (c)
Tim Shaw (slow-left-arm spin)
Kenny Watson
James Carse (Rhodesian/Zimbabwean)/Michael van Vuuren
* The great Eastern Province years were coming late 80s early 90s when their batting line-up got Kepler Wessels, Peter Amm, Mark Rushmere, Dave Callaghan & obviously Dave Richardson went back home from Northern Transvaal & they got some Australian quicks.
NORTHERN TRANSVAAL
Mandy Yachad
Dave Richardson
Vernon du Preez
Noel Day (wk)
Lee Barnard (c)
Kevin Verdoorn
Rodney Ontong
Anton Ferreira
Willie Morris (slow left-arm spin)
Paul Robinson
Francois Wiedeman
NATAL
Brian Whitfield
Mark Logan
Robert Bentley (Rhodesian)
Robin Smith (62 tests for England)
Daryll Bestall
Mike Procter (c)
Titch Smith/Trevor Madsen (wk)
Geoff Miller (right-arm off-spin) (34 tests for England)
Paddy Clift (Rhodesian)
Evan Hodkinson/Kenneth Cooper/Michael Clare/Les Taylor (2 tests for England)
* The leg-spinner Richard McGlashan who was called up for the last Rebel England tour 1990 was just about joining the Natal squad this season
** Natal weren't strong for a while. van der Bijl had retired 82/83 but had spent end of his career with mean machine anyway. Barry Richards retired 82/83 & they also couldn't hang on to Fotheringham and like Lee Irvine played for the mean machine.
*** They got West Indians Collis King & Hartley Alleyne in 84/85 and Andrew Hudson debuted
**** Their seam bowling attack kept changing as you can see above bar the Rhodesians Paddy Clift and eventually Peter Rawson came in 1989. Other seamers like David Norman, Trevor Packer were in and out and they also had 41-test Englishman Graham Dilley who was part of the famous Ashes winning team down under.
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StephenZA
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Mulder scores any runs he needs to play for SA in the SL series. I know its harsh but I don't think de Bruyn is gonna make a test bat, has all the talent none of the temperament he has got out to many times with injudicious shots.
If this does happen, then puts Oliviers position under even more precarious situation, unfairly at this stage.
If this does happen, then puts Oliviers position under even more precarious situation, unfairly at this stage.
SeamUp
International Coach
Won't they give Hamza first shot ? Definitely between him and Mulder. If Amla & Faf stick out for England at home next summer I do think they will change between Hamza/Mulder between requirements.
You think they will give Theunis the Wanderers ? I think they will which is probably fair.