What Qualifies as a Test Allrounder?

[cnerd123]

iirc I said that one wicket per innings was too high earlier itt.

Doug Walters would be Australia's greatest allrounder if you allowed him onto the list.

Should be some cut off of overs bowled/test or /innings IMO

 

[Starfighter]

Doug Walters would be Australia's greatest allrounder if you allowed him onto the list.

Walters took well under 1 wicket per match. Now what was I saying earlier?

 

[Days of Grace]

So, 1 wicket a match?

The official ICC allrounder ratings multiply the batting rating by the bowling rating and before dividing by 1000. This has the effect of rewarding more balanced allrounders. So, a straight 700 + 300 would be 1000. The same as 500 + 500. With the above calculation, player A (a batsman and part-time bowler) would have 210 ratings points and player B, a true allrounder, would have 250 points. I wonder if there is a way to make this gap larger in favor of player B?

 

[Starfighter]

I think something around there, 1 to 1.5. I'd suggest 1.2 but that seems ridiculously arbitrary for something guessed on instinct.

 

[mr_mister]

To exclude Davidson as an all rounder is ridiculous

He batted more frequently 5-7 than he did 8 onwards in tests

He was played as an all rounder. His batting didn't come of very often it seems but that just means he wasn't a very good 'all rounder' as Howe said earlier

 

[Days of Grace]

500 runs and 25 wickets. 20.00+ adjusted batting average and 1.00+ wickets per match.

Batting rating multiplied by bowling rating before dividing by 500. Does everyone agree that a batting rating should be multiplied by a bowling rating instead of the two being simply added together?

1 Imran Khan 1052
2 GS Sobers 1012
3 IT Botham 950
4 Sir RJ Hadlee 930
5 JH Kallis 921
6 SM Pollock 855
7 N Kapil Dev 850
8 Shakib Al Hasan 782
9 R Ashwin 772
10 CL Cairns 763
11 KR Miller 749
12 GA Faulkner 720
13 RA Jadeja 716
14 AW Greig 708
15 Mushtaq Mohammad 702
16 DL Vettori 683
17 Wasim Akram 678
18 TL Goddard 670
19 AK Davidson 639
20 W Rhodes 639
21 ER Dexter 632
22 A Flintoff 629
23 MW Tate 621
24 R Benaud 608
25 MH Mankad 598
26 VD Philander 597
27 FMM Worrell 593
28 RB Simpson 585
29 CG Macartney 582
30 MA Noble 579
31 BA Stokes 571
32 MG Johnson 568
33 EJ Barlow 560
34 Mohammad Hafeez 555
35 JR Reid 551
36 GP Swann 550
37 RR Lindwall 547
38 TE Bailey 546
39 WPUJC Vaas 545
40 Shahid Afridi 540
41 J Briggs 537
42 WW Armstrong 526
43 SR Watson 525
44 H Trumble 518
45 JO Holder 516
46 HH Streak 512
47 MA Starc 512
48 FE Woolley 508
49 RJ Shastri 495
50 RM Cowper 492
51 BM McMillan 490
52 GE Gomez 489
53 JM Gregory 487
54 RJ Harris 486
55 MM Ali 474
56 B Lee 472
57 M Prabhakar 469
58 WJ Edrich 469
59 IK Pathan 456
60 C Kelleway 455
61 PR Reiffel 452
62 DJ Bravo 450
63 PM Pollock 449
64 JDP Oram 446
65 BR Taylor 438
66 FJ Titmus 435
67 RG Nadkarni 428
68 GRJ Matthews 422
69 G Giffen 422
70 Abdul Razzaq 421
71 CL Hooper 420
72 BL D'Oliveira 419
73 KD Mackay 418
74 DA Allen 416
75 DG Phadkar 410
76 L Klusener 407
77 H Verity 404
78 Intikhab Alam 402
79 R Illingworth 402
80 G Miller 402
81 GOB Allen 400
82 CR Woakes 399
83 DJ Nash 397
84 SA Durani 388
85 OG Smith 380
86 G Ulyett 375
87 JE Emburey 368
88 CC Lewis 366
89 RW Barber 363
90 DJG Sammy 361
91 KD Ghavri 357
92 GJ Whittall 357
93 SJ Snooke 356
94 BR Knight 351
95 W Barnes 348
96 JWHT Douglas 345
97 C White 341
98 JH Sinclair 339
99 RWV Robins 335
100 AF Giles 335
101 W Bates 333
102 JG Bracewell 330
103 N Boje 328
104 DS Atkinson 323
105 PA Strang 323
106 Mahmudullah 323
107 JDC Goddard 314
108 GH Hirst 314
109 FR Brown 312
110 MG Bevan 309
111 L Amarnath 309
112 S Madan Lal 308
113 KD Boyce 304
114 AM Blignaut 304
115 DN Patel 301
116 RF Surti 300
117 BD Julien 300
118 A Mishra 294
119 RMH Binny 292
120 AG Steel 291
121 MR Marsh 289
122 JR Ratnayeke 288
123 RG Archer 288
124 B Kumar 286
125 RL Chase 281
126 Azhar Mahmood 274
127 TT Bresnan 273
128 LC Braund 273
129 S Abid Ali 263
130 V Pollard 261
131 W Watson 259
132 CB Llewellyn 259
133 GS Ramchand 257
134 AJ Hall 256
135 DAJ Holford 254
136 KJ O'Keeffe 249
137 MD Craig 242
138 GHS Trott 231
139 JC Watkins 228
140 RG Barlow 219
141 PL Symcox 214
142 TR Veivers 214
143 UDU Chandana 208
144 JW Hearne 204
145 CE McLeod 187
146 AJY Hopkins 186
147 MJ Santner 181

 

[Starfighter]

I like that better though Dexter and Wasim are a bit iffy (though Dexter took more wickets than I remembered), down to about 30. I feel Swann and Trumble are a little out of place, though Swann did average 22 and Trumble 19 in an era when it was much harder to. Lee is really out of place, especially above Kelleway, and Harris is to a lesser extent. I think this is a better ranking and I agree than some way which rewards strength in both disciplines is better if possible. It's a fine balancing act and I don't think it'll be doable without some really iffy ones.

Also Flintoff is about 250 places too high.

 

[Bolo]

500 runs and 25 wickets. 20.00+ adjusted batting average and 1.00+ wickets per match.

Batting rating multiplied by bowling rating before dividing by 500. Does everyone agree that a batting rating should be multiplied by a bowling rating instead of the two being simply added together?

1 Imran Khan 1052
2 GS Sobers 1012
3 IT Botham 950
4 Sir RJ Hadlee 930
5 JH Kallis 921
6 SM Pollock 855
7 N Kapil Dev 850
8 Shakib Al Hasan 782
9 R Ashwin 772
10 CL Cairns 763
11 KR Miller 749
12 GA Faulkner 720
13 RA Jadeja 716
14 AW Greig 708
15 Mushtaq Mohammad 702
16 DL Vettori 683
17 Wasim Akram 678
18 TL Goddard 670
19 AK Davidson 639
20 W Rhodes 639
21 ER Dexter 632
22 A Flintoff 629
23 MW Tate 621
24 R Benaud 608
25 MH Mankad 598
26 VD Philander 597
27 FMM Worrell 593
28 RB Simpson 585
29 CG Macartney 582
30 MA Noble 579
31 BA Stokes 571
32 MG Johnson 568
33 EJ Barlow 560
34 Mohammad Hafeez 555
35 JR Reid 551
36 GP Swann 550
37 RR Lindwall 547
38 TE Bailey 546
39 WPUJC Vaas 545
40 Shahid Afridi 540
41 J Briggs 537
42 WW Armstrong 526
43 SR Watson 525
44 H Trumble 518
45 JO Holder 516
46 HH Streak 512
47 MA Starc 512
48 FE Woolley 508
49 RJ Shastri 495
50 RM Cowper 492
51 BM McMillan 490
52 GE Gomez 489
53 JM Gregory 487
54 RJ Harris 486
55 MM Ali 474
56 B Lee 472
57 M Prabhakar 469
58 WJ Edrich 469
59 IK Pathan 456
60 C Kelleway 455
61 PR Reiffel 452
62 DJ Bravo 450
63 PM Pollock 449
64 JDP Oram 446
65 BR Taylor 438
66 FJ Titmus 435
67 RG Nadkarni 428
68 GRJ Matthews 422
69 G Giffen 422
70 Abdul Razzaq 421
71 CL Hooper 420
72 BL D'Oliveira 419
73 KD Mackay 418
74 DA Allen 416
75 DG Phadkar 410
76 L Klusener 407
77 H Verity 404
78 Intikhab Alam 402
79 R Illingworth 402
80 G Miller 402
81 GOB Allen 400
82 CR Woakes 399
83 DJ Nash 397
84 SA Durani 388
85 OG Smith 380
86 G Ulyett 375
87 JE Emburey 368
88 CC Lewis 366
89 RW Barber 363
90 DJG Sammy 361
91 KD Ghavri 357
92 GJ Whittall 357
93 SJ Snooke 356
94 BR Knight 351
95 W Barnes 348
96 JWHT Douglas 345
97 C White 341
98 JH Sinclair 339
99 RWV Robins 335
100 AF Giles 335
101 W Bates 333
102 JG Bracewell 330
103 N Boje 328
104 DS Atkinson 323
105 PA Strang 323
106 Mahmudullah 323
107 JDC Goddard 314
108 GH Hirst 314
109 FR Brown 312
110 MG Bevan 309
111 L Amarnath 309
112 S Madan Lal 308
113 KD Boyce 304
114 AM Blignaut 304
115 DN Patel 301
116 RF Surti 300
117 BD Julien 300
118 A Mishra 294
119 RMH Binny 292
120 AG Steel 291
121 MR Marsh 289
122 JR Ratnayeke 288
123 RG Archer 288
124 B Kumar 286
125 RL Chase 281
126 Azhar Mahmood 274
127 TT Bresnan 273
128 LC Braund 273
129 S Abid Ali 263
130 V Pollard 261
131 W Watson 259
132 CB Llewellyn 259
133 GS Ramchand 257
134 AJ Hall 256
135 DAJ Holford 254
136 KJ O'Keeffe 249
137 MD Craig 242
138 GHS Trott 231
139 JC Watkins 228
140 RG Barlow 219
141 PL Symcox 214
142 TR Veivers 214
143 UDU Chandana 208
144 JW Hearne 204
145 CE McLeod 187
146 AJY Hopkins 186
147 MJ Santner 181

Sounds reasonable.

I tend to look at 25+ for batting. Anything below is a bowler who can bat.

Multiplying feels like the best approach for balanced and possibly bowling allrounders. Not so much so for batting allrounders where a sub standard output is sufficient to allow the team to field an extra bowler- they don't need to be balanced and addition of points likely makes more sense. No clean answer here. Multiplying is likely the best compromise

 

[Dendarii]

Philander feels a bit too high on the new list, especially since he wasn't on the previous one. But as Starfighter said, there's always going to be some iffy ones. The thought did occur to me that a weighted average of the batting and bowling ratings might yield a better result, but the problem is that any weights chosen would be fairly arbitrary with the only criterion for assessing them being whether the list looks reasonable or not.

 

[mr_mister]

Learie Constantine another with a crappy batting average but you can't say he wasn't an all rounder. Batted 5-7 mainly

 

[Starfighter]

but the problem is that any weights chosen would be fairly arbitrary with the only criterion for assessing them being whether the list looks reasonable or not.

Exactly right. Eventually you could sink as low as just nominating a list of players on whether you consider them an allrounder or not, to get something that 'looks right'.

 

[Borges]

a. A qualification of 1000 runs/50 wickets and 25.00+ adjusted batting average and 1.00+ wickets per innings

is a lot more reasonable than

b. 500 runs and 25 wickets. 20.00+ adjusted batting average and 1.00+ wickets per match.

a. is a cut off for genuine all rounders,
b. would just include every player with some kind of value in their secondary discipline.

 

[Starfighter]

As previously demonstrated, no.

 

[Days of Grace]

The top 25 looks good, in my opinion. Below there's a few players I would swap around but like some posters have said, there's always going to be some iffy ones. Rather have the iffy ones buried in the list then in the top 10.

 

[bagapath]

a 50+ knock every four or five innings innings should be made mandatory
similarly 3+ wickets in every four or five innings should be given weightage too

 

[Starfighter]

a 50+ knock every four or five innings innings should be made mandatory
similarly 3+ wickets in every four or five innings should be given weightage too

A lot of lesser specialists would be excluded under these conditions, and considering a good to great allrounder is like a mediocre batsmen and bowler added I really don't think so.

 

[bagapath]

unless there is significant contribution with bat and ball from a player on a regular basis, he can't be an allrounder. a 50+ knock or a three wicket haul usually makes an impact in a game. achieving either of them every four or five innings makes one a true all-rounder.

 

[Starfighter]

Allrounder is a team role, not some arbitrarily defined level of excellence.

 

[bagapath]

Allrounder is a team role, not some arbitrarily defined level of excellence.

Everything is about the team
This whole chat is about coming up with arbitrary definitions

 

[bagapath]

Here is one more take

list of cricketers who crossed 30 in more than 20 innings and also taken more than 2 wickets 20+ times

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