-
Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
DoG's Top 100 Test Bowlers Countdown Thread 100-1
- Thread starter Days of Grace
- Start date
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
Wasim Akram has always been difficult to rate. On one hand you can see his average while great is inferior to likes of McGrath, Ambrose etc. His WPM fell below 4 a match which all gold tier bowlers should be able to maintain even if their careers stretch long after they are past their peaks. Both Waqar and Imran finished with >4 WPM and better overall average than Wasim did. Wasim also ranks pretty low at #72 on best ever test bowler rankings with an all time best of only 830 points. In contrast Imran ranks #3 and Waqar at #11. He also had a relatively high proportion of tail end wickets giving him a low overall value of wickets.
All this should tell you Akram can be confidently be ranked below others including those 2 great Pakistani bowlers. But consider the fact that he had (still has?) the best rate of winning MoM awards in tests of all players since MoMs became a regular feature. That tells you he probably had great impact on the game results. I can't reconcile the two.
Also, in sub-continent (including in India where you expect people to hate Pakistani players) you ask anyone who the greatest ever fast bowler was, the answer is almost certainly Wasim Akram. It's only nerds like us on CW who disagree with that. I get told I am stats junky and don't understand cricket when I tell them Malcolm Marshall is the greatest pacer. LOL.
Last edited:
OverratedSanity
Request Your Custom Title Now!
Anderson, Kumble and Ashwin have been ridiculously overrated by the formula, but oh well you can't have everything.
Wasim was a genius. Brilliant to watch.
Wasim was a genius. Brilliant to watch.
Last edited:
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
Rabada more so IMO. I can see why Ashwin and Anderson will be rated high. One of them has been breaking all records to fastest to X wickets, the other has ridiculous longevity.
Starfighter
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Wasim gets the MotM awards and the ultimate plaudits in certain places because flash impresses people more than ultimate quality, and he had loads of it. That's the beginning and end of it.
OverratedSanity
Request Your Custom Title Now!
A completely meaningless post unless you point out which of his motm awards he didn't deserve.
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
Yeah. He also makes it to ATG world XI of lot of 'experts' and savvy students of cricket's history.
Starfighter
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Cricket 'experts' also think clearly bumped catches are clean and very often place Lillee over Marshall. And define 'savvy students of cricket's history'.
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
I mean people who have heard of Hobbs, Hammond, Headley etc.
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
Top 10 matches/MoM award for players with >= 5 such awards:
All of Wasim's MoM awards: All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo
| Player | Mat/Awards |
| Wasim Akram (PAK) | 6.12 |
| K Rabada (SA) | 6.40 |
| RA Jadeja (INDIA) | 6.50 |
| VD Philander (SA) | 6.88 |
| M Muralitharan (ICC/SL) | 7.00 |
| CEL Ambrose (WI) | 7.00 |
| SPD Smith (AUS) | 7.11 |
| JH Kallis (ICC/SA) | 7.22 |
| Imran Khan (PAK) | 8.00 |
| MD Marshall (WI) | 8.10 |
All of Wasim's MoM awards: All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo
Starfighter
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
He got them in matches for all of his three tons. But Lords 1992 is a good example. Wasim's 2/49, 4/66 (no specialist batsmen) 24 and 45* got him the award over Waqar's 5/91 (including Hick, Lamb and Botham), 2/40, 14 and 20*.
Starfighter
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
You're talking to someone who has spent hours combing for newsreels and other old footage, watches Sandy Bell, Cyril Walters etc.
vcs
Request Your Custom Title Now!
I know it doesn't help them much in these kind of rating exercises, but I always used to envy Pakistani bowlers for their efficacy in taking out the lower order.
Hell, right now we could do with a bowler or two that can blast tails out like they used to do regularly (Sam Curran
).
Kumble was also great at it. He'd pin them LBW with a full, quick delivery.
Hell, right now we could do with a bowler or two that can blast tails out like they used to do regularly (Sam Curran
).Kumble was also great at it. He'd pin them LBW with a full, quick delivery.
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
I think DoG's methodology doesn't so much distinguish between top order wickets vs. tail end wickets. That's one potential area to improve this methodology on. DoG can confirm.I know it doesn't help them much in these kind of rating exercises, but I always used to envy Pakistani bowlers for their efficacy in taking out the lower order.
Hell, right now we could do with a bowler or two that can blast tails out like they used to do regularly (Sam Curran
Kumble was also great at it. He'd pin them LBW with a full, quick delivery.
Starfighter
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
_00_deathscar
International Regular
Yea, the averages and WPM are great but not top, top elite/gold/platinum etc tier, but Pakistan's pathetic fielding has to come into account somehow. It's not something you can statistically compare across various bowlers (except maybe something as simple as % of type of dismissals but it doesn't really do it justice), but it's effectively taking out a whole method of taking a wicket that the 3 Pakistani bowlers didn't really have access to, which is insane.
And also, how hugely DRS would have helped Akram, Waqar and Imran. Some of the LBW calls that weren't made because the umpire was bamboozled by the ball is ridiculous.
At the same time, I do think Wasim in particular was probably a more gun ODI bowler than a Test one (which is partly because he's one of the best ODI bowlers of all time, but it's just something that's almost added to his test legend, in a bizarre way).
A subcontinent team would be pretty damn good....
Sehwag | Gavaskar | Dravid | Tendulkdar | Sangakkara (wk) | pick two of Inzi/Yousuf/Khan/Miandad | Imran (c) | Wasim | Waqar | Murali
_00_deathscar
International Regular
This - the ability to clean up the tail shouldn't be underrated or made out to be such a bad thing. The recent England-India test series (and perhaps many more) turn India's way if India could clean up the tail away (which, to their credit, they do very well in India).I know it doesn't help them much in these kind of rating exercises, but I always used to envy Pakistani bowlers for their efficacy in taking out the lower order.
Hell, right now we could do with a bowler or two that can blast tails out like they used to do regularly (Sam Curran
Kumble was also great at it. He'd pin them LBW with a full, quick delivery.
Even in the days of Indian bowling's nadir with Prasad, Agarkar and co, we've often had teams at like 80/6 before they went on to put on 300 or something stupid.
Magrat Garlick
Request Your Custom Title Now!
More bowler-heavy than I had expected
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
ODI list on the other hand is batsmen heavy, as you would expect.