***Official*** English Football Season 2018-19

[andmark]

Well I mean that's why there's a legit debate to be had. But it's definitely not just "best attacker therefore best by default" thing. It's not like he (and Ronaldo) just shade it over their contemporaries, which ultimately are the only concrete comparisons you can make.

Yeah, which makes the GOAT argument messy, as I originally argued. It is possible to make a reasoned argument as to who the best player ever is, but the people who participate in that debate frequently don't go into the require nuance. Indeed, it might be Messi (although I'd take Cruyff), but the debate would have to cover more factors than people frequently account for.

 

[Spark]

Yeah, which makes the GOAT argument messy, as I originally argued. It is possible to make a reasoned argument as to who the best player ever is, but the people who participate in that debate frequently don't go into the require nuance. Indeed, it might be Messi (although I'd take Cruyff), but the debate would have to cover more factors than people frequently account for.

Well yeah but the way you tried to account for it was really, really strange and people definitely shouldn't do it like that.

 

[andmark]

Well yeah but the way you tried to account for it was really, really strange and people definitely shouldn't do it like that.

Why? Like, defenders and goalkeepers should be in the debate surely?

 

[andmark]

This discussion has been weird. I'm the most Cruyffian football fan there is, and here I am defending defensive players haha.

 

[Spark]

Why? Like, defenders and goalkeepers should be in the debate surely?

If there's a goalkeeper who is clearly twice as good as every other goalkeeper on the planet for like ten years then sure. I'm not quite sure how that would work though.

 

[andmark]

If there's a goalkeeper who is clearly twice as good as every other goalkeeper on the planet for like ten years then sure. I'm not quite sure how that would work though.

Some might argue Lev Yashin. I remember hearing his statistics, and they were ridiculous.

 

[Uppercut]

Tbf, what makes Messi truly incredible is that you can make a reasonable argument that even if he scored 0 goals a season and retained all his other skills he'd still be a fabulous player. He's basically a David Silva who also scores 50 goals a year.

Yeah that's a great way of putting it. Or like if you merged Maradona with Riquelme. He both runs the game from start to finish and punctuates it with ridiculous goals. All the other greats only do one or the other.

 

[EmJo]

Depends who you already have up front I guess.

We have Depoitre I just feel he is playing with a lack of confidence not sure on Mounie but a good keeper is always a confidence builder.

 

[EmJo]

It's hard to imagine a more complete attacker than Messi.

I dream of nothing more but the harsh reality is we would sell him for a bag of spanners.

 

[Furball]

The arguments that surfaced for Ronaldo over the last couple of years were total pish.

People started rhyming off Real Madrid and Portugal's achievements as if they were solely down to him, completely ignoring Ronaldo's injury in the 2016 European Championship final and his anonymity in 2 of Real Madrid's 3 Champions League finals.

It's annoying that people also use Portugal's triumph as a pro-Ronaldo point. They're probably the worst tournament winners in my lifetime.

 

[vcs]

The guy has an insane knack of reaching peak goal scoring form during the CL knockouts though. He scored hat-tricks for fun against top defences in those ties in the last few years.

Like it or not, that seems to count for a lot as far as the individual awards are concerned.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Anyone who watched the Euros knows Pepe was way better and more important to Portugal's win. So in a roundabout way andmark was right after all. Defenders are underrated.

 

[sledger]

Anyone who watched the Euros knows Pepe was way better and more important to Portugal's win. So in a roundabout way andmark was right after all. Defenders are underrated.

Always the way in sports. And in life come to think of it. Those whose roles/jobs/positions etc. will always be fawned over by the masses less than those whose roles/jobs/positions are more glamorous, regardless of their objective worth/talent/impact etc.

 

[vcs]

Well, in Pepe's case, he's a colossal thug and a ****, so I'm entirely OK with it.

 

[Uppercut]

Anyone who watched the Euros knows Pepe was way better and more important to Portugal's win. So in a roundabout way andmark was right after all. Defenders are underrated.

I was at the 3-3 draw with Hungary and, despite Ronaldo scoring twice and Portugal conceding 3 times, in a strange way Pepe stood out more. I think watching on TV takes more away from attackers than it does defenders. Though I guess I might change my mind if I saw someone like Cavani with crazy good off-the-ball movement.

 

[Cabinet96]

Tbh Ronaldo of the last three years isn't prime Ronaldo and he wasn't that amazing in the Euros. It's not hard to imagine someone in a different position being better over a handful of games. He's basically a moments player now whereas as you've both mentioned, Messi runs games like an attacking midfielder while basically still being the most prolific scorer in the world. I really doubt any defensive player has made as big a difference in full league seasons year after year as him. If you had two equal mid-table teams and gave one Messi and one Varane I think the one with Messi would do better and it wouldn't be particularly close. I'd wager the same with Neymar and Hazard.

 

[cpr]

So that makes defenders inherently more valuable than attackers? This is a strange line of argument.

The 2009 Barca team had Yaya Toure at CB in the CL final, did that make them ineffective?

TBF they didn't need a defence that day, we wasted attack after attack because Ronaldo's mantra that day was 'I hit it because I could, without thinking if I should'. I suppose 2009 wasn't his finest summer in that regard.

 

[andmark]

Tbh Ronaldo of the last three years isn't prime Ronaldo and he wasn't that amazing in the Euros. It's not hard to imagine someone in a different position being better over a handful of games. He's basically a moments player now whereas as you've both mentioned, Messi runs games like an attacking midfielder while basically still being the most prolific scorer in the world. I really doubt any defensive player has made as big a difference in full league seasons year after year as him. If you had two equal mid-table teams and gave one Messi and one Varane I think the one with Messi would do better and it wouldn't be particularly close. I'd wager the same with Neymar and Hazard.

Varane and Messi aren't a fair comparison. A better one would be something like Messi and Beckenbauer or Bobby Moore because Messi is one of the top class elite attacking players whilst Varane isn't in that class for defenders.

Attacking players will likely win more points when they do well because the points in leagues for a win is 3 whilst a draw (more likely to be influenced by defenders) is one. That said, a hypothetical mid-table team's style is likely to influence whether the attacking player or the defensive player would be more influential. For example, I reckon Messi would be more influential for Burnley than for Bournemouth given Burnley's defensive approach, and so he could significantly improve the attacking. At Bournemouth, Bobby Moore would be more influential due to their tendency to concede a fair few goals whilst scoring a fair few.

 

[Furball]

We're on our way!

 

[Ikki]

The arguments that surfaced for Ronaldo over the last couple of years were total pish.

People started rhyming off Real Madrid and Portugal's achievements as if they were solely down to him, completely ignoring Ronaldo's injury in the 2016 European Championship final and his anonymity in 2 of Real Madrid's 3 Champions League finals.

It's annoying that people also use Portugal's triumph as a pro-Ronaldo point. They're probably the worst tournament winners in my lifetime.

Bit harsh. I think Messi is clearly the GOAT and will probably never buy the pro-Ronaldo argument in terms of changing that stance but it is obvious that he clearly means a lot for every team he plays. He scores too many goals, too many important goals, to dismiss him.

There's also something to be said about the psychotic nature of his consistency and ability to be fit. I love all the great players of the past but Ronaldo and Messi score as much as they do because they are just that much better than everybody else and as long as the team around them isn't absolute garbage they will score and assist a boatload. I generally think players are getting better as football/technology progresses.

But as OS has said, for me Messi is just complete when it comes to being good at football - with the ball you don't want anyone else on it but Messi. His brain is operating on another level. While Ronaldo seems to have cut the fat off of his game to the point that he is efficiency personified, Messi seems like a savant that comes up with solutions and incredible plays in milliseconds.