Spark
Global Moderator
20+ centuries at a minimum absent very good external reasons that artifically limited playing time somewhat
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Are multi-format greats a thing of past?
- Thread starter ankitj
- Start date
Bahseph
International Debutant
I don't know if AbdV is an all time Test great but I'll stand by the notion that him being unbelievable in ODIs raised our expectations of him in Tests to crazy levels. Still had a fantastic record across all conditions and situations.
In terms of the question, Kohli is undeniable to me. Probably the best T20i batsman ever imo.
In terms of the question, Kohli is undeniable to me. Probably the best T20i batsman ever imo.
I didn't think AB had a shot at ATG status, but I changed my mind at the very end of his career looking at the gulf in quality between him and every other bat on the field.
He meets all of the criteria people have listed here. Average of 55 away is excellent. Failed in an extremely limited sample vs minnows, but otherwise has a lowest average of 39 vs any country, and a lowest average of 42 in any country. Behind only Tendulkar and arguably Kallis and the lesser AB that I can think of in this regard, who all had a lot more matches to smooth over the cracks.
ATG for me. Not by much, but he did enough.
He meets all of the criteria people have listed here. Average of 55 away is excellent. Failed in an extremely limited sample vs minnows, but otherwise has a lowest average of 39 vs any country, and a lowest average of 42 in any country. Behind only Tendulkar and arguably Kallis and the lesser AB that I can think of in this regard, who all had a lot more matches to smooth over the cracks.
ATG for me. Not by much, but he did enough.
stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Border carried the Australian team for the entirety of the 80s. Of course he's an ATG.
stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
ABdV is a test great. As far as I'm concerned he was the difference between the two sides in March, which allowed South Africa to finally win at home against Australia.
He was also substantially better than other batsmen in his team and was exceptional everywhere.
He's not absolute top tier in tests, but he's well and truly up there as far as I'm concerned.
I think you are misunderstanding. Im not suggesting border isn't an ATG. It's clear he is. Im bringing him into conversation because of this- he's one of only 3 players I can think of whose consistency might top ABs.
OverratedSanity
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I used to consider the "average 40 in all conditions" thing a good metric before, but it's just not a very good indicator of anything imo. Shouldn't averaging 60-70 in certain conditions be just as valuable since that level of domination is more likely to win you games? Unless it's hilariously lopsided across conditions like sehwag or Jayawardene, I don't think it holds much value as a metric in telling us much about a player.
A more balanced record is more likely to win games for you. Players typically struggle against the best opposition/in the most alien or toughest conditions. These holes are likely to stack as teammates underperform. Pick a top bat of recent times and choose a country they underperformed in and it's likely a country their team underperformed in.
The reverse also holds. If they have a monster record in a country the rest of their team is typically doing well there.
Consistency isn't necessarily better, but it will be in the vast majority of cases.
Pap Finn Keighl
International Debutant
Lara is a definite top 10 odi batsmen ever.
Smith nowhere near.
Lara's top order stats compares well with Sachin's.
Matthews is a great player across all formats.
Averages 43, 42 and 27 in tests odi's and t20s. Above average in all 3 not to mention handy economical bowler in shorter formats. And can hold up an end in tests in normally unhelpful conditions. Test bowling average has deteriorated in recent years as he's struggled with injuries.
Averages 43, 42 and 27 in tests odi's and t20s. Above average in all 3 not to mention handy economical bowler in shorter formats. And can hold up an end in tests in normally unhelpful conditions. Test bowling average has deteriorated in recent years as he's struggled with injuries.
Hard to judge a great until they are very close to the end of their careers unless they are absolutely spectacular. See Amla.
The only locks around are Kohli and Dhoni in odis and Steyn in tests. Rabada, Kohli and Rabada would have to do something epically wrong not to go on to become greats, but 3 or 4 great years aren't enough. Plenty of other players could get there too, but it's a whole lot of guesswork as to who.
Hard to know what defines an ODI great now as well. The game has shifted so much in the last 5 or so years.
The only locks around are Kohli and Dhoni in odis and Steyn in tests. Rabada, Kohli and Rabada would have to do something epically wrong not to go on to become greats, but 3 or 4 great years aren't enough. Plenty of other players could get there too, but it's a whole lot of guesswork as to who.
Hard to know what defines an ODI great now as well. The game has shifted so much in the last 5 or so years.
marc71178
Eyes not spreadsheets
Has your account been hacked by a Sri Lankan fan?
TheJediBrah
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Mathews isn't even close to a great player in any format. He's equally ok in all formats but I don't think that was the point of the thread.
TheJediBrah
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Smith averages nearly 50 in ODIs since becoming a specialist batsman. If he's "nowhere near" then no one is.
morgieb
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Means a bit less in the modern era, especially when it's only been like three years. His ODI stats are good but hardly elite.
TheJediBrah
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he's an indisputable ATG or definitely top 10, just disputing the claim that he's "nowhere near"
GoodAreasShane
Cricketer Of The Year
A couple of years back (about the time Sanga was finishing up) I thought Mathews could well have been a true ATG, but since then he has really plateaued. Injuries a large part of it, but his form has been more than flaky at key moments.
If you take a batsmens tests and odi averages and put them together it seems the minimum standard for a 'great' player to be at is Just over 80. Mark Waugh for instance is considered a top tier player of his time and had a 41 and 39 average. Kevin Pietersen is then 47 and 40 which puts him at 87. Matthews sits comfortably inbetween the 2 on 85, with the added bonus of being a genuine 5 bowling option in tests and odis.