Why does Pakistan traditionally produce better fast bowlers than India?

[Engle]

Did anyone mention that Kapil was dropped from a Test due to his irresponsible batting, yet Imran was selected for a few Tests as batsman/captain when he could not bowl ?

 

[cnerd123]

Sachin wasn't even charged with ball tampering by the referee iirc. He was just charged for not informing the umpire he was cleaning the ball.

Imran wasn't ever charged tho, although he claimed to have done it after.

 

[Engle]

And Imran batted at # 3 in WC 92 a huge responsibility in the finals, which laid a solid platform for a team that was persistently prone to collapse.

He knew what he was doing amidst all the naysayers who could not figure out his go-slow strategy

 

[rtramdas]

I mean there are literally pictures of Sachin tampering with the ball and no concrete evidence of Imran doing it. Yet for some reason Imran's entire bowling career is to be discredited while we simultaneously are to just take Sachins word that he had no idea what he was doing was illegal, ignoring the reason he didn't get charged for it was because the BCCI threatened to boycott the whole tour.

And how this relates to Imran Khan's batting is beyond me. Such junk posting. Keep this stuff to ICF and PC please.

i can give names of at least 15 cricket related personalities of which even several Pakistanis who have given testimonies at various times w.r.t Imran's tampering exercises.That is enough for the basic common sense to realize that he was a chronic certified cheater. And lack of evidence from those far lesser technological single camera days doesn't conceal that plain truth.An ATG legendary batsman doing ball tampering for what benefit?? Is there any sense to believe in that??

 

[OverratedSanity]

An ATG legendary batsman doing ball tampering for what benefit?? Is there any sense to believe in that??

Lol India's fast bowlers were so bad that Sachin tampered it and immdiately began bowling booming inswingers albeit at 110 kmph. Was pretty hilarious to watch.

 

[cnerd123]

Batsmen apparently have nothing to gain from tampering the ball (it's not like cricket is a team sport or anything), yet Imran's batting record is to be ignored because he tampered the ball


Hmm

 

[TheJediBrah]

Batsmen apparently have nothing to gain from tampering the ball (it's not like cricket is a team sport or anything)

I guess we can unban Warner, Smith and Bancroft now. And clear the names of Faf & Chandimal & Sachin & Atherton and nearly every other player that has ever been accused. Because funnily enough they have almost all been batsmen.

 

[trundler]

I think Kapil would make it to any current team with relative ease but in the case of an all time XI he becomes hard to fit in because of Imran and team balance considerations.

Still the inferior batsman and bowler though.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

I think Kapil would make it into any All Time XI based on pure mustache alone

 

[the big bambino]

Sachin wasn't even charged with ball tampering by the referee iirc. He was just charged for not informing the umpire he was cleaning the ball.

It must have been dirty coz that’s some heavy duty scouring.

 

[rtramdas]

What makes you think so? There is in fact empirical evidence that batsmen are more likely to get out very early in their innings (may be before they get to 20-25) than late in the innings. So arguably scoring two scores of 50 (not out) and 50 (out) is probably harder than scoring 100 (out). While you make the same number of runs for one dismissal, in first case you have to weather the early innings difficulty twice.

Henceforth, I am going to assert that not outs harm a batsman's average in such discussions.

I am not going deep with the practical implimentations of your theory because that involves too many factors that can make it a lot complicated.
But I would narrate it with a simple example of genuine batsman in Sachin Tendulkar.Sachin avg:ed 53.78 in 329 inns with the help of 33 not outs.
To avg: 53.78 in 329 inns with 0 not outs , he needed to score 53.78*329 = 17694 runs, that is 1773 runs more from his actual 15921.In other words
in each of his 33 not out inns he needed to score 1773/33 = 53.73 runs more.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

Above is the link of Sachin's 33 not out inns. We can see that the vast majority of inns are those where Sachin didn't settle yet or those where he
comfortably crossed 100.So to score an extra 53.73 in each of these 33 not out inns is far too much even for an accomplished great batsman,
especially because of him being either not settled yet or having wear and tear of being too much at the crease with lot of matches involving
abroad conditions as well. Suppose he gets out for a paltry 5 more in one such not out inns.That means he need to score 102 more in another not out
inns to compensate for the deficit.In short I just simply can't accept that Sachin would have even maintained let alone exceed his 53.78 avg: , had
he gone on uniterrupted with each of his 33 not out score.I would give a maximum 30 per inns for each of these 33 not out scores , means he would
have scored 33*30 = 990 runs more which would yield him an avg: of 15921+990 / 329 = 51.4 . Imran's not out inns pattern too is more or less the same
except that the lower & higher ceiling scores would be that of a 30+ avg:ing all rounder rather than that of a great batsman.In addition to that
Imran was a fast bowler too.So there would have been far additional stress burden of wear and tear while batting.So if a 'batsman only' Sachin with
53.78 avg: and only 33/329 = 10.03% not out scores finds it practically impossible, to my mind it is clear that a 'fast bolwer + batsman' Imran
with 25/126 = 19.84% not outs would find it doubly difficult. I would give a maximum 20 runs for each not out of Imran by which even if he remains not
out 11 times, he would end with 3807+280/114 = 35.54 at best.

 

[Starfighter]

That's a lot of numbers for completely not understanding the issue at hand.

 

[srbhkshk]

I am not going deep with the practical implimentations of your theory because that involves too many factors that can make it a lot complicated.
But I would narrate it with a simple example of genuine batsman in Sachin Tendulkar.Sachin avg:ed 53.78 in 329 inns with the help of 33 not outs.
To avg: 53.78 in 329 inns with 0 not outs , he needed to score 53.78*329 = 17694 runs, that is 1773 runs more from his actual 15921.In other words
in each of his 33 not out inns he needed to score 1773/33 = 53.73 runs more.

Why are you even calculating that?

 

[TheJediBrah]

Why are you even calculating that?

That is baffling. He just calculated something that was literally in the stats he already had. If he averages 53.78, then of course he'd have to make 53.78 extra runs per innings for each not out to finish with the same average . . . of 53.78.

 

[rtramdas]

That is baffling. He just calculated something that was literally in the stats he already had. If he averages 53.78, then of course he'd have to make 53.78 extra runs per innings for each not out to finish with the same average . . . of 53.78.

yeah .... i knew it even before that calculation... But yet went for the extra run count required ..... that's all....

 

[rtramdas]

Imran scored actual runs, and at a far better average (when coming in earlier in the order). Literally the only thing Kapil has over Imran is strike rate which in a 5 day Test is the most irrelevant measure of comparison.

You cannot just ignore the matches where Imran batted but didn't bowl because they are an indication of his batting ability (and it's surely another indication of Imran's superiority that they wanted him to play even though he couldn't bowl?)

if he scored 'actual' runs from far higher up the order in general , his runs/inns count would have been far better than that of Kapil's . But in
reality it is only 30.21:29.65 in favour of Imran, of course Kapil's only first 131 inns rightfully are taken into account because excess longevity
affected his stats and any way it is larger sample size than Imran's 126 count.But Kapil scored these runs at almost double str: rate as that of
Imran(84.4: 47.52) .And if Imran could feed off from other set top order batsmen much more in general, Kapil scored single handedly much more in
general in the company of technically 'far from ok' tail enders .For me the latter matter is far more difficult thing to do.And Kapil's big inns in
general are of one or 2 levels above that of Imran when all criterias are taken into account.And in Windies the undisputed GOAT team , Kapil was
far better to Imran .These all adds up to make Kapil convincingly better test batsman.

 

[rtramdas]

I saw an article recently in some Indian newspaper where John Holder claimed that while umpiring in the '89 Pakistan/India series he saw both teams, and Imran, Wasim, Kapil and Prabhakar in particular, quite openly scratching scratching the ball. Also England at the Oval in '91, the season after which he was dropped from the international panel.

Yes.... I know about that incident where umpire Holder accused the Indians of that.More over this
statement of Holder, though is enough to doubt even a legendary player like Kapil do not have enough in it to prove the repeated offense of Indian
players w.r.t tampering.


Would elaborate reasons from Kapil's point of view.First of all we need to go thru this link.
https://books.google.co.in/books?id...63aAhVJqo8KHXvfBkgQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=kapil dev if i tampered with ball i could have got 500 wkts&f=false



In the 83 PAK series most of the Indian players speculated that some thing was being done to the ball by the Pakistanis.Naturally it can be
assumed in all probablity that Indians knew nothing about tampering that time.Soon in 83 itself Kapil played in the series vs WI in India. After
that he had his knee surgery.Till that point Kapil's record read at 62 tests,247 wkts @27.72 avg:. Balwinder Sandhu who has played a lot with Kapil
dev (even in the 83 WI series in India and also in that 83 PAK series) has stated with utmost assurance and sincerity that he never would place
Imran over Kapil because of tampering and that Kapil was a clean cricketer.Sandhu being such closely associated with these players and events would
know much better than we people, isn't it???So it's sure that Kapil took 247 wkts in 62 tests at a very good avg: of 27.72 with out any tampering.

After that his knee injury and subsequent surgery came.He didn't take adequate rest after surgery.The result was that in his next 30 tests
he could only pick 72 wkts @ 36.25.And more importantly an avg: of 40.26 in 19 tests at home during this period.If he tampered with the ball his
figures would certainly have been much better isn't it???

Then in the next 2 series in WI and 'NZL at home' respectively Kapil was at his very best.Here too there is nothing to suggest that ball
tampering took place because in WI Kapil had always been brilliant like 'duck into water' and against NZL he could feed of brilliant performance of
2 spin bowlers Ayub & Hirwani.

After that the 89 series in PAK happend.As umpire Holder points out tampering would have happend mostly with malicious Prabhakar at the lead,
keeping in mind as to what happend in that 83 series in PAK .But from all the things mentioned till now , we can assume Kapil to be innocent in this
saga despite surely being aware about what was going around him.The scenario would have been that he minded his own business of not indulging in any
malpractice but being well aware that some other members related with the team did some thing related to tampering with 83 series in mind. Yes
umpire Holder has pointed out Kapil's name too.But we need to evaluate things based on what happend in the latest Cameron Bancroft incident.Even
with the aid of 30 or so cameras and such big screens and all ,the field umpires couldn't identify as to what was going on and to be more precise
as to who was the person behind tampering. It took around 1.30 hrs effort of cameras to identify that Bancroft was the culprit, who actually was
going the dirty work.If this is the case in these much highly technologically advanced days, how could a middle aged umpire with out any technical
assistance trace out exactly as to who exactly was tampering the ball among 11 players spread distances apart in a vast ground???Naturally when
ever the ball would have passed on to him, umpire Holder could have realized that ball was being tampered with.But to think that he knew exactly the
culprit behind the tampering is big folly.Naturally he named the 2 main bowlers in the Indian camp and also Pak camp.One thing which can be agreed
upon is that all the bowlers would benefit from a tampered ball even if tampering is only done by a single player. But it is naive to think that
Kapil got any benefit when oppostion score happend to be 699/5 in the lone inns in the concerned Lahore match.

Malicious Prabhakar played 39 tests in total and avg:ed a paltry 37.3. 1st test in 89 PAK tour was only his 2nd test match.So at the worst case,
even if Prabhakar tampered with the ball in all matches he played in , there is nothing to suggest that he knew even the basics of proper tampering,
keeping in mind a mere ordinary trundler Chris Pringle could pick 11 wickets in his first tampering attempt that too on flat Pakistan pitch.
Other wise how he could avg: only 37.3??? That means ,even if other bowlers too would involuntarily benefit by ball tempering in normal cases , in
Prabhakar's case that would be practically nil.

So all in all ,it can be safely assumed that 89 PAK tour has been the only instance of occurance of tampering in Kapil's career where he was
not at all the culprit.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

if he scored 'actual' runs from far higher up the order in general , his runs/inns count would have been far better than that of Kapil's . But in
reality it is only 30.21:29.65 in favour of Imran, of course Kapil's only first 131 inns rightfully are taken into account because excess longevity
affected his stats and any way it is larger sample size than Imran's 126 count.But Kapil scored these runs at almost double str: rate as that of
Imran(84.4: 47.52) .And if Imran could feed off from other set top order batsmen much more in general, Kapil scored single handedly much more in
general in the company of technically 'far from ok' tail enders .For me the latter matter is far more difficult thing to do.And Kapil's big inns in
general are of one or 2 levels above that of Imran when all criterias are taken into account.And in Windies the undisputed GOAT team , Kapil was
far better to Imran .These all adds up to make Kapil convincingly better test batsman.

Why only 131 innings of Kapil against Imran's entire career?
In fact, its Imran who changed from Bowler to Batsman after 71 tests.

Funny, all Imran fans think mixing his 2 phases as a cricketer is the right way to compare him with other bowling allrounders. Its clearly cheating.
Suppose His ability as batsman when he was an Atg bowler is 5, and in last 17 tests its 10.. They present him as a batsman of ability of 7.
Kapil 7.25 always.

 

[cnerd123]

To actually debate the ball tampering stuff now forces us to dive to the depths of 'he said she said', and still no reason has been provided for how it is related to Imran's batting.

As for PFK - he's just flat out ignoring stats and historical events, and is now assigning subjective number ratings to players' skill levels.

I think it's safe to say both these debates are over.

 

[stephen]

Yes Minister and Yes Prime Minister should be required viewing in high schools around the world. Probably the greatest comedy in history.