CW decides the greatest test spinner ever. 43 names: Countdown/Rankings thread

[Migara]

Honestly this seems like a thing only in the minds of the English, who hadn't (and still haven't) produced a good leg spin bowler since Freeman, and the Aussies, who probably felt the Windies pace battery had stolen their spotlight after Lillee and Thommo's demigoddery.

India had Sivaramakrishnan, with Hirwani soon to arrive. Admittedly not that good, but Chandra had only retired in 1979. Sometimes 8-9 years can seem like a lifetime though, must be said.

And by 1991 Kumble has arrived.

 

[AndrewB]

Honestly this seems like a thing only in the minds of the English, who hadn't (and still haven't) produced a good leg spin bowler since Freeman, and the Aussies, who probably felt the Windies pace battery had stolen their spotlight after Lillee and Thommo's demigoddery.

India had Sivaramakrishnan, with Hirwani soon to arrive. Admittedly not that good, but Chandra had only retired in 1979. Sometimes 8-9 years can seem like a lifetime though, must be said.

I don't think a guy who'd looked good for 2 Tests against England was much evidence that leg-spin could thrive in modern cricket. If anything, Sivaramakrishnan and Bob Holland probably seemed to show that in the 80s leg-spinners could look good for a game or two until the batsmen worked them out. Note that they'd both played their last Test by then, too.

I suspect the fear was that, unless Qadir continued to be successful (or someone else came along), other countries would follow the example of West Indies (and England) and pick a spinner who could bat a bit, keep the batsmen quiet and take the odd wicket until the new ball was available again. Especially bearing in mind that this was a time when older cricket writers thought there was a danger of ODI cricket taking over from Test cricket.

 

[Howe_zat]

It's strange that Ashwin has been placed among top players here but Anderson was clearly rejected from the fast bowling list.

 

[Bolo]

Ashwin's interesting. He's basically bowled at the same level as Lyon in the last Australian tour of India, but he'll always be rated way higher than Lyon. Lyon really does get shafted by bowling on Australian pitches. It will be interesting to see how people rate them both after retirement. There's no doubt that Ashwin is the best Indian-conditions bowler of all time but he really needs to step up overseas.

Lyon may just have the worst deal in terms of home conditions of any bowler ever. He's done very well at home. Probably not Ashwin well, but it's just about impossible to compare.

He's done well away as well, although he's been the beneficiary of some ambitious pitch decisions. Plus everyone is useless against spin.

He might be better than a lot of the subcontinental and English spinners who get a lot more praise. Spinners are so hard to assess.

 

[harsh.ag]

It's strange that Ashwin has been placed among top players here but Anderson was clearly rejected from the fast bowling list.

Better options among the fast bowlers. Plus the gulf of gap between Steyn and him. No such gulf between Ashwin and someone.

 

[Slifer]

Lyon may just have the worst deal in terms of home conditions of any bowler ever. He's done very well at home. Probably not Ashwin well, but it's just about impossible to compare.

He's done well away as well, although he's been the beneficiary of some ambitious pitch decisions. Plus everyone is useless against spin.

He might be better than a lot of the subcontinental and English spinners who get a lot more praise. Spinners are so hard to assess.

Alot more fast bowlers to choose from and fwiw Ashwin does have a slightly better away record than Andersons, which isn't usually the case for spinners.

 

[vcs]

Ashwin hasn't done better than Anderson abroad. He's got dropped from time to time when India have toured Australia/NZ/Eng/SA. Apart from Edgbaston, he hasn't had much of an impact on a single Test in those countries.

 

[Bolo]

It's strange that Ashwin has been placed among top players here but Anderson was clearly rejected from the fast bowling list.

Better options among the fast bowlers. Plus the gulf of gap between Steyn and him. No such gulf between Ashwin and someone.

16? and 25 aren't that far apart. Different benchmarks to compare to. Ashwin has a truly amazing record for a spinner in modern times. All spinners have holes in their records like he does, but the quicks don't. Longevity aside, statistcally Andeson is nowhere near the quicks ranked close to him , not just someone like Steyn

 

[harsh.ag]

16? and 25 aren't that far apart. Different benchmarks to compare to. Ashwin has a truly amazing record for a spinner in modern times. All spinners have holes in their records like he does, but the quicks don't. Longevity aside, statistcally Andeson is nowhere near the quicks ranked close to him , not just someone like Steyn

Sure, but if Steyn didn't exist, I'm betting Anderson's stock would be higher

 

[Bolo]

Sure, but if Steyn didn't exist, I'm betting Anderson's stock would be higher

True, although I'm not sure it would impact his number 25. Peak Anderson = career Philander, and Philander is down at the bottom as well. Philander is too much of a htb to rank with the best, but his away average is still Andersons career average, and Anderson is a massive htb.

 

[Red]

#21st. Stuart MacGill, 115 points

Featured on 20 of 35 lists
Highest finish: 5th (1 time)
Ranking within spin discipline: 8th of 16 (Leg Break Googly)
Test WPM ranking: 10th of 43 (4.73)


SCG MacGill. When I first started watching cricket during the '98/99 Ashes MacGill was the first bowler I really saw dismantle a team, taking match figures of 12/107 in Sydney including a very ***y 7/50 in the second innings. His action to me was more fun to replicate than Warnes, with the big left hand being held out as he ran in and then a classical action that followed. He always came with a neat haircut and ball polishing towel hanging from his trousers.

He took 208 wickets in his 44 test career and as we all know it could have been a lot more. Despite a very impressive strike-rate of 54(I think the best of any post-war spinner before Ashwin recently came along) and nearly 5 wickets per test, MacGill often struggled to make the test side. That is of course due to Shane Warne existing, and in many overseas tours MacGill was snubbed of the chance to play more test cricket. He never got to play a single test in spin-friendly India or in England, the latter of which he had a great record against playing at home. That must have killed him. Australia simply preferred to play 3 quicks and a spinner except on a few rare occasions, mainly Sydney tests and the Windies tour of '99 when MacGill simply couldn't be dropped for a returning Warne after his ashes domination earlier in the year. There he famously kept Warne out of the side for the final match.

His bowling average comes in around 29 despite the awesome S/R and WPM and this is in big part due to MacGill's style. Like Mailey of old MacGill was more than happy to give away a boundary ball an over and he was always tossing it up and asking the batsman to play shots. An old school leggie. Equipped with enormous turn of the ball and a better wrong'un than Warne, MacGill generally took a bag of wickets whenever he played, sometimes outperforming Warne in the tests they both featured in. He took 12 five fers in just 44 tests and although it's been said here recently that he only got to play on spin suited pitches, he winded up playing a fair bit of cricket on the other less helpful wickets of Australia. 20 of his 27 home tests came at grounds other than the SCG, this number beefed up due to a few Warne injuries and a one year drug ban. So MacGill certainly got his fair crack at home and generally excelled.

He ranks in this exercise as the 8th best leggie of all time yet he had to fight for selection with who many consider to be the best leggie of all time. If he was born in England, hell if he was simply born ten years earlier or later he'd have played 100+ tests. Unlucky but still a legend.

MacGill was an absolute legend. If he'd played for any other nation, or turned up in Australia in any other decade, and played as many tests as Warne did, he'd have taken somewhere in the vicinity of 600-700 wickets.

Outstanding bowler and much better than many who will finish higher than him on this list.

 

[Slifer]

Ashwin hasn't done better than Anderson abroad. He's got dropped from time to time when India have toured Australia/NZ/Eng/SA. Apart from Edgbaston, he hasn't had much of an impact on a single Test in those countries.

Who cares?? Overall better average and sr. And he's a spinner. Not normal for a spinner to have a better away record than a fast bowler. Either way, I dont care much for either player. Rabada is my bowler crush!!

 

[TheJediBrah]

MacGill was an absolute legend. If he'd played for any other nation, or turned up in Australia in any other decade, and played as many tests as Warne did, he'd have taken somewhere in the vicinity of 600-700 wickets.

Outstanding bowler and much better than many who will finish higher than him on this list.

Amen brother

 

[Daemon]

Ashwin's interesting. He's basically bowled at the same level as Lyon in the last Australian tour of India, but he'll always be rated way higher than Lyon. Lyon really does get shafted by bowling on Australian pitches. It will be interesting to see how people rate them both after retirement. There's no doubt that Ashwin is the best Indian-conditions bowler of all time but he really needs to step up overseas.

Lyon also had a very, very poor record in the SC before India/Bangladesh happened which doesn't help. Remeber UAE and Dhoni's double hundred?

 

[TheJediBrah]

Remeber UAE and Dhoni's double hundred?

No did those things happen?

 

[vcs]

Lots of overrating of MacGill going on.

 

[OverratedSanity]

As good as he was, it felt like MacGill bowled one terrible ball an over mixed in with the good ones. That's not really a recipe for 600 test wickets.

 

[mr_mister]

#15th. Subhash Gupte, 194 points

Featured on 21 of 35 lists
Highest finish: 3rd (1 time)
Ranking within spin discipline: 7th of 16 (Leg Break Googly)
Test WPM ranking: 22nd of 43 (4.14)


The first leg-spinning star of the Post-War era, Sobers rated him better than Warne. Packing a deadly googly and lots of turn on his leg break, Gupte also had a consistent line and length. He took 12 five fers in only 36 tests and was the first Asian bowler to take 9 wickets in an innings, his best being 9/102. He had to shoulder a heavy load for his team, with the only other test bowler he played with of lasting notoriety that I can think of was the all-rounder Mankad. Tough cross for a spinner to bear. It did allow him to take over a healthy 4 wickets per test.

Gupte had a better away average than at home, averaging 28 on the road. Not bad. He went to town on the minnows of his era, averaging 19 against NZ(all coming in a tremendous 34 wicket series) and 25 against Pakistan. Though he was a little weaker against the stronger sides, his worst avg was only 37 against England, not terrible for a leg spinner.

 

[mr_mister]

As good as he was, it felt like MacGill bowled one terrible ball an over mixed in with the good ones. That's not really a recipe for 600 test wickets.

dunno about this. Maybe we are overrating him a bit but he never had trouble taking wickets even if he was leaking runs while doing it. Came 10th on this list for WPM. I think his token bad ball every over probably moreso meant he was never gonna have an awesome average

 

[TheJediBrah]

As good as he was, it felt like MacGill bowled one terrible ball an over mixed in with the good ones. That's not really a recipe for 600 test wickets.

Unless you're seriously suggesting that 208 wickets in 44 games were flukes then this is rubbish

No Warne and 600 wickets would have been the absolute minimum