Vettori v.s. Giles

[Blaze]

Who is the better player in your opinion?

I think Giles is a slightly better batter but Vettori is a far better bowler and will probably be NZ's next captain.

So for me Vettori

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

I actually think Vettori a better batsman. I also don't consider Vettori at all a much better bowler. They're both pretty much on par in my mind. The similarities between their international stats are amazing. ie average-wise and econ-wise.

 

[SJS]

I have compared them both as bowlers and Giles scores. If batting is considered there is no doubt about the reverse.

 

[social]

Vettori is a much better batsman (recent test 100 and 80 odd in odi vs Aus) and a far more threatening bowler.

Giles makes the most of his limited batting skills and does a useful job in containment as a bowler.

Unfortunately, he has really only had a handful of wicket-taking tests as a bowler (although there is an argument to suggest that this might be due to negative tactics employed by England) and cannot be classed as Vettori's equal in this department.

 

[Blaze]

I have compared them both as bowlers and Giles scores. If batting is considered there is no doubt about the reverse.

I am looking at them as overall players but the main focus is bowling. What makes you think Giles is a better bowler SJS? It suprised me that you think Giles is better

 

[Retox]

Who is the better player in your opinion?

I think Giles is a slightly better batter but Vettori is a far better bowler and will probably be NZ's next captain.

So for me Vettori

If they make him captian I will be annoyed. There is so much pressure on him to bowl well and chip in some runs that I feel being captian would hinder his bowling. Oram,Marshall ( who have both captian/captian there FC teams) seem better ideas.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

One reason could be that the international stats are very similar, yet Giles' domestic stats are markedly better than Vettori's.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

If they make him captian I will be annoyed. There is so much pressure on him to bowl well and chip in some runs that I feel being captian would hinder his bowling. Oram,Marshall ( who have both captian/captian there FC teams) seem better ideas.

I think Oram is destined to a huge part of any future New Zealand success. I wouldn't have him as captain as I wouldn't want too much pressure on him. Not sure why there would be considerations of post-Fleming yet though.

 

[Retox]

I think Oram is destined to a huge part of any future New Zealand success. I wouldn't have him as captain as I wouldn't want too much pressure on him. Not sure why there would be considerations of post-Fleming yet though.

He does captian CD (FC side) and I think he will be the man for the job.

 

[Top_Cat]

Giles for me. Vettori probably the superior batsman but Giles as a bowler. For mine, he has greater variation in flight which is pretty good for a guy who started his FC career (or grade, not sure) as a pace bowler.

 

[SJS]

I am looking at them as overall players but the main focus is bowling. What makes you think Giles is a better bowler SJS? It suprised me that you think Giles is better

If you look at Giles bowling post Nasser Hussain, you find a huge change. Earlier, with his over the wicket, outside the leg-stump (for right handers) attack was not just very negative, it was not allowing his natural flight to show and the turn was of no use and seemed sesign to contain anyway. But now, bowling round the wicket, mostly, with a classical left armers line around off stump, moving away he is forcing batsmen to try and drive him to the off side, tempting them to do so and this is what good left arm spin bowling is all about in test matches.

Vettori's problem, according to me, is his grip. If you have noticed, he holds the ball between his thumb, index finger and middle finger, that is, a thumb and two fingers. Normally finger spinners would grip with the thumb and three fingers. The thumb and the ring finger on the underside of the ball. This gives a much stronger grip and allows the strongest two fingers, index and middle finger to really tweak the ball.

Vettori' s grip has the thumb and middle finger on the underside of the ball, leaving the lone index finger to do all the work. This makes his tweak very weak and he just rolls the ball out of his hand.

Moreover, due to the weak grip he is unable to push the ball horizontally forward at the time of delivery which makes the ball go as far as possible, parallel to the ground before the sudden dip which provides the great finger spinners with the sudden dip that causes the batsmen to misjudge the length. Vettori is unable to do so. Thus he just throws the ball up in the air and it moves in a regular arc. He does manage to pitch on length but the trajectory is not deceptive if you get what I mean.

I am absolutely astonished that no one has corrected his grip in all these years. I have not seen any major bowler in the world bowl with this grip.

Besides trajectory his lack of biting spin and sudden bounce/kick off the wicket is also the result of this timid action.

 

[Top_Cat]

SJS: What you describe, if I'm reading it correctly, is what just about every text-book I've ever read says as far as bowling finger spin. Thumb and two fingers is the grip I've always seen, personally.

 

[James]

I think Oram is destined to a huge part of any future New Zealand success. I wouldn't have him as captain as I wouldn't want too much pressure on him. Not sure why there would be considerations of post-Fleming yet though.

From what I've been hearing some parts of the NZ media are calling for Fleming to be sacked as captain following the Australian series and to be replaced by Daniel Vettori. Not sure it would make any difference to the side personally.

On the Vettori/Giles comparision I agree they're probably pretty much on a par but over time Vettori will become a much better bowler than Giles ever was or ever with be IMO.

Vettori has been a loan hand in the NZ bowling attack for a while now while Giles has the support of Flintoff, Harmison, Hoggard, etc around him. Makes a difference that I reckon.

 

[Top_Cat]

SJS: What you describe, if I'm reading it correctly, is what just about every text-book I've ever read says as far as bowling finger spin. Thumb and two fingers is the grip I've always seen, personally.

This is what I'm talking about;

http://www.channel4.com/sport/cricket/analyst/bowling/ana_60.html

 

[Ming]

Who suggested that Marshall be a captain of NZ? Firstly, you are wrong about Hamish, he hasn't been a FC captain, it's James who has captained ND.

 

[BlackCap_Fan]

Vettori, due to his bowling against the Aussies and the 83 he made.

 

[Mr Casson]

Vettori, due to his bowling against the Aussies and the 83 he made.

One innings does not a player make.

 

[Somerset]

Definately Daniel Vettori for me. Giles has obviously improved over the last year and was successful against New Zealand and the West Indies but to be fair, a number of those wickets were from bowling into the batsmen's pads or from incorrect decisions. Vettori has earned his wickets against the Australians, supposedly the hardest side to bowl at and has consistently tied them down in ODIs. His test record against them in the recent series in Australia wasn't too shabby either. As far as batting goes, I would class them as relatively even. For me, Giles is a more consistent and solid batsman while Vettori, as he showed with his 83 at Christchurch, is more than capable of producing more than decent knocks with the bat.

 

[Somerset]

One innings does not a player make.

He made 137 against Pakistan in December 2003, while two recent domestic centuries can't have hindered him either.

 

[SJS]

SJS: What you describe, if I'm reading it correctly, is what just about every text-book I've ever read says as far as bowling finger spin. Thumb and two fingers is the grip I've always seen, personally.

Yes it IS thumb and two fingers with the fourth finger at the bottom near the thumb. Vettori holds with thumb and index finger finger with the middle finger giving support at the bottom. Try it with a cricket ball and you will see what I mean.