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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

Mr Miyagi

Banned
He is however more dominant in his chosen sport than anyone else has been, ever. Surely you agree with that.

No one here is saying Bradman is the greatest athlete ever. But if the definition of the "best sportsman" is being more dominant than anyone in their chosen sport ever, then he most certainly is that.
Depends on the measure to be honest. Phil the Power Taylor in darts is up there. There's probably some ten pin bowler up there too. Or lawn bowls. So while I think Bradman is the most dominant in cricket, I'm not going to rule out all sports.

And it is a big "if" that I don't agree with. I don't even like baseball that much. But Bo Jackson - he's my favourite for best ever sportsman. Has been for decades.
 

Mr Miyagi

Banned
Haven't read the whole thread but saw a few posts about tennis and yeah, for me, tennis hits the sweet spot between athleticism/physicality and skill (hand-eye, touch, mental toughness etc.).
Yeah tennis is tough, just lacks the physicality and strength, but needs power and mental toughness, and endurance at times. I agree. Speed helps too.
 

Mr Miyagi

Banned
How is cricket not a tough sport? Batting requires nothing except two swats? Why don't you try facing a fast bowler in his pomp like Larwood or Mitchell Johnson or a spinner with all his vile like Shane Warne? I have seen a lot of people speak a lot of drivel on this board but none like you have on cricket over the past few pages. Please don't diss on our beloved game. Thanks.
I'm not dissing "our" beloved game. But it's not a tough sport by any measure except for bowling fast on concrete pitches in Australia where there's no spin assistance so the captain aint going to sub you for a spinner.
 

Starfighter

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
How is cricket not a tough sport? Batting requires nothing except two swats? Why don't you try facing a fast bowler in his pomp like Larwood or Mitchell Johnson or a spinner with all his vile like Shane Warne? I have seen a lot of people speak a lot of drivel on this board but none like you have on cricket over the past few pages. Please don't diss on our beloved game. Thanks.
I used to view TJB as arguing like this when I started reading these boards. Funny what perspective does. I see he still hasn't addressed my points about Jackson's not being dominant in his sport. Great batters average more than .254

He lacked power, strength, speed, and navigating what is in front of him
'Navigating what is in front of you'? So you're saying he would have dominated the Isle of Man TT? An event which despite being part of a sport which I only have a small, though definite interest in, and not even being the highest standing competition in that sport, I consider a greater test of skill, planning, reactions and courage than any other sporting event. One where the type of bravado which comes up so often in other sports is not only unneeded, but not really possible.

Or is your definition of sport not wide enough?
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
I'm not dissing "our" beloved game. But it's not a tough sport by any measure except for bowling fast on concrete pitches in Australia where there's no spin assistance so the captain aint going to sub you for a spinner.
It is very much a tough sport batting wise as facing a fast bowler or spinner isn't easy. If you are not skilled, you will feel the leather v a quality bowler, despite the protective equipment. You can only imagine in the time of Bradman.
 

Mr Miyagi

Banned
It is very much a tough sport batting wise as facing a fast bowler or spinner isn't easy. If you are not skilled, you will feel the leather v a quality bowler, despite the protective equipment. You can only imagine in the time of Bradman.
Try getting smacked in the face with a boxing glove, and tell me how difficult batting to spin is.
 

TheJediBrah

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This is a load of pretentious horse**** tbh. The only real athletic or physical gift that batsmen need is hand-eye co-ordination. Fitness is less important in cricket batting than most popular sports. Plain and simple. This is not arguable.

Also plenty of strawmen in there like "When people look at fat guys like Inzy and Ranatunga they think that anyone can pick up a bat and be an elite cricketer". No one is saying this.
I don't know why we're even talking about pure athleticism in a discussion about whether Bradman was "the greatest sportsman of all time". Everyone just humouring a certain poster I suppose.
 

cnerd123

likes this
This is a load of pretentious horse**** tbh. The only real athletic or physical gift that batsmen need is hand-eye co-ordination. Fitness is less important in cricket than most popular sports. Plain and simple. This is not arguable.
Define fitness. These are vague words you are throwing around. 'Athleticism' 'Fitness'.

There are different areas of physical prowess you can evaluate - there is cardiovascular endurance, there is explosive strength, there is sustained strength, there is agility, there is range of movement. There are a few more I can't think of right now. My point is, while you don't need to excel in every area of physical ability to be a cricketer, there is a minimum you require in each of them in order to compete at the highest level. And that is just true. If you cannot lift a bat, you can't play cricket as a batsman. You need a degree of strength. If running 10 laps exhausts you, you cannot be a batsman. You need a degree of endurance. If you are so stiff you can't bend your front leg to play a cover drive, you cannot be a batsman. You need a degree of flexibility. You agree with this right?

You need a certain minimum level of physical prowess in different aspects to be an elite batsman at the highest level, correct?

My point is that, when compared to some sports, these minimum requirements will be higher than they are for those other sports. All the examples I gave in that post are true. Do you think I was wrong in any of them?

If you're trying to argue that the sum total of all these physical requirements to be an elite batsman is lower than the sum total of all the requirements to be elite in other sports, then I don't disagree. I just don't know how you can begin to evaluate this, so I don't come out and say I agree either. I think some sports require you to have extremely high capacity in certain areas of physical ability while ignoring all others - like sprinting, for instance. You don't need the stamina to bat for 5 days. It's an apples to orange comparison, so why make it to begin with?

And lets take your stance and test it - that cricket has a lower physical requirement to be an Elite batsman than any other sport. Picture this hypothetical: Take a NFL linebacker, gift him with Inzy's talent, put him in that test against Lahore in May vs NZ, assume all other variables are equal. Do you genuinely believe that his body would be capable of batting 436 balls?
What about if you take a skinny Kenyan marathon runner, give him Inzy's talent, put him in an ODI against Zimbabwe, assume all else equal: is his body capable of hitting 3 sixes and 2 fours in 35 deliveries?

I honestly think the answer is 'no' in both those circumstances.

An athlete's body is built to be used for what they compete in. I don't think you can compare athleticism across sports unless the sports are sufficiently similar enough to be compared. Within a cricketing context, we all know Kohli and Dravid are far fitter than Inzy or Ranatunga. We can make that comparison cleanly. I just don't think you can make a clean comparison between Inzy and an athlete from another sport, unless you define one specific metric (eg. how much can they deadlift, how fast do they run 100m, how fast do they run a marathon). That's a comparison you can make. Just throwing around phrases like 'cricketers are less athletic than other sports' just doesn't work for me.
 

OverratedSanity

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I don't know why we're even talking about pure athleticism in a discussion about whether Bradman was "the greatest sportsman of all time". Everyone just humouring a certain poster I suppose.
I'm only responding to what ***** is saying tbh. Don't really care about whatever the **** the bradman v Bo Jackson debate is.
 

TheJediBrah

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I'm only responding to what ***** is saying tbh. Don't really care about whatever the **** the bradman v Bo Jackson debate is.
***** fell for the bait and switch

ftr it's not really a debate. It's one guy stating his simple opinion over and over and over again.
 

Pratters

Cricket, Lovely Cricket
Try getting smacked in the face with a boxing glove, and tell me how difficult batting to spin is.
So you have at least conceded one point - That batting against fast bowlers isn't easy. Earlier you said batting is just two swats every six balls so lets **** on it.

Coming to the second point, you are again confusing athleticism or physicality with sporting ability.
 

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