Weak Ends to A career

[quincywagstaff]

Marks Taylor's entire second half of his test career stunk


Did nothing for ages until that Ashes century in 97, then did nothing again for ages until the famous 334 in 98. Then did nothing again for the remainder of his career

Averaged under 25 for his final 30 something tests iirc

Not entirely accurate; Taylor had a very good 1997/98 Test season.

Scored a century v NZ in Brisbane to get Australia out of a big hole on the first day when the ball was seaming around. Carried his bat v South Africa in Adelaide which helped save the match as much as Mark Waugh’s last day heroics and scored a 2nd innings century in India to help Australia win their first Test there since 1969.

 

[quincywagstaff]

Re: Ponting, I think the end of his ODI career was more ignominious than his Test career, especially considering how great a ODI bat he was and having led Oz to consecutive WC wins undefeated.

In the 2011/12 home tri-series he made 5 consecutive single-figure scores while having to open in some matches (something he hardly ever did) and even return as captain while Clarke was injured. He was dropped during the series and a great ODI career didn’t even get the send off that his Test career did.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Re: Ponting, I think the end of his ODI career was more ignominious than his Test career, especially considering how great a ODI bat he was and having led Oz to consecutive WC wins undefeated.

In the 2011/12 home tri-series he made 5 consecutive single-figure scores while having to open in some matches (something he hardly ever did) and even return as captain while Clarke was injured. He was dropped during the series and a great ODI career didn’t even get the send off that his Test career did.

He scored a great hundred in the WC QF

 

[TheJediBrah]

Re: Ponting, I think the end of his ODI career was more ignominious than his Test career, especially considering how great a ODI bat he was and having led Oz to consecutive WC wins undefeated.

In the 2011/12 home tri-series he made 5 consecutive single-figure scores while having to open in some matches (something he hardly ever did) and even return as captain while Clarke was injured. He was dropped during the series and a great ODI career didn’t even get the send off that his Test career did.

Yeah you know you had a bad time when you get replaced by Peter Forrest who then outscores you by a factor of 10, and gets dropped from his state team a year or 2 later.

How on earth did that guy get a game batting in the top 4 for Australia

 

[Bolo]

That's about it. I mean the discussion could have mentioned how wonderful our bowling was in those dreaded slave like conditions or how hard it is to come from a hard wicket country and still compete and most often win in variable, spinning or seaming conditions.

But no: Ponting overrated.

Trundler is ranking Ponting top 5 of all time. Many people are disagreeing. I'm defending my disagreement with the fact that he was better home than away and pointing to the disparity in home away averages for AUS batmen. This is what we are actually discussing.

You and JB are making a pretty solid effort at putting words in my mouth. I'll spell it out a bit more simply and divert a little away from the topic at hand to make clearer the positives about AUS that I'd previously alluded to so you stop taking offence over nothing or assuming a logical contradiction that does not exist:

AUS pitches favour batmen.
Visiting batmen to any country are at a disadvantage because they are not used to conditions while the bowlers are.
Additionally visiting batmen to AUS are at a disadvantage relative to other countries because AUS almost always has good bowlers. This point plus the previous account for why visiting batting averages are not great.

AUS batsmen are typically worse than their stats suggest because of pitch conditions while their bowlers are typically better. This is often a claim made for subcontinental players, but should be recognised for AUS as well now, because pitches have changed. The opposite is true for South Africans.

 

[jimmy101]

I guess when it comes to weak ends to a career you can't discount those players which retired on a Saturday or a Sunday.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Trundler is ranking Ponting top 5 of all time. Many people are disagreeing. I'm defending my disagreement with the fact that he was better home than away and pointing to the disparity in home away averages for AUS batmen. This is what we are actually discussing.

You and JB are making a pretty solid effort at putting words in my mouth. I'll spell it out a bit more simply and divert a little away from the topic at hand to make clearer the positives about AUS that I'd previously alluded to so you stop taking offence over nothing or assuming a logical contradiction that does not exist:

AUS pitches favour batmen.
Visiting batmen to any country are at a disadvantage because they are not used to conditions while the bowlers are.
Additionally visiting batmen to AUS are at a disadvantage relative to other countries because AUS almost always has good bowlers. This point plus the previous account for why visiting batting averages are not great.

AUS batsmen are typically worse than their stats suggest because of pitch conditions while their bowlers are typically better. This is often a claim made for subcontinental players, but should be recognised for AUS as well now, because pitches have changed. The opposite is true for South Africans.

Nah man I was just messing around. I didn't even read what anything you said before your last post.

ftr though Aus pitches have only really been particularly flat for the last 4-5 years. If you look at average batting scores/averages per country throughout history Aus is actually the second lowest (after SA)

 

[quincywagstaff]

He scored a great hundred in the WC QF

Would've been a perfect way to go out but pointlessly played another 16 matches after that (no centuries, sub-30 average).

 

[Bolo]

Nah man I was just messing around. I didn't even read what anything you said before your last post.

ftr though Aus pitches have only really been particularly flat for the last 4-5 years. If you look at average batting scores/averages per country throughout history Aus is actually the second lowest (after SA)

You spanner

They've been ridiculous in the last 4 or 5, but they have been getting flatter for a long time. AUS bowlers and countries who don't know how to play bounce have hidden the fact a bit, but the number of 60 home 40 away bats AUS have produced before the drop in fiasco points to them getting flatter for the past 20 years or so.

 

[quincywagstaff]

Yeah you know you had a bad time when you get replaced by Peter Forrest who then outscores you by a factor of 10, and gets dropped from his state team a year or 2 later.

How on earth did that guy get a game batting in the top 4 for Australia

Would dare say even avid Oz cricket fans would recall him playing for Australia; surprised he played as many ODIs as he did.

Amazing to think now that a batsman with a Strike Rate of 65 managed to play 15 ODIs for Oz this decade.

 

[GotSpin]

And Kumble. Common factor? Both were quick through the air.

In my time watching, Ponting’s end was the most torturous. Bloke was fitter than ever, still able to make FC attacks look rank but lost the mental battle, personally. He claims he stayed on to help the transition after McG/Warne retired and that seems plausible but still, sad to watch. Clarke’s end wasn’t so great but he seemed pretty crocked.

Notice how it’s always ****ing batsmen?

I'm sure I read something about Ponting acknowledging that he himself had realised, following his 100th test, that he had already reached his peak and would only further decline.

Ponting staying on for his last few years was one of the least selfish actions by a cricketer

Ponting averaging what he did, and with his experience, was better than any other available option at the time and would have left us with a tremendous hole had he decided to protest his average

It was sad to see though

 

[Shri]

Trott, Bell, Swann.

 

[Daemon]

I'm sure I read something about Ponting acknowledging that he himself had realised, following his 100th test, that he had already reached his peak and would only further decline.

Ponting staying on for his last few years was one of the least selfish actions by a cricketer

Ponting averaging what he did, and with his experience, was better than any other available option at the time and would have left us with a tremendous hole had he decided to protest his average

It was sad to see though

Yep. Oppossite of Sachin who worked hard to bring India to #1 and win the WC, following which he decided to skip a tour and go in unprepared to England, lead us through 0-8 and then still insist on staying on for the 100th 100 and until BCCI had to arrange a farewell for him.

 

[cnerd123]

Did we really have any better alternatives during 0-8 tho?

I remember the narrative at the time being we might as well have our veteran, past their prime batsmen grind us through it than bring in the new gen and scar them early. Dravid was immense in England, but Viru and Laxman were poor too right?

 

[TheJediBrah]

Remember when Ponting and Sachin opened together in the IPL? And they were both kind of crap?

 

[trundler]

Remember when Ponting and Sachin opened together in the IPL? And they were both kind of crap?

Sort of like an Expendables movie.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Hey I love those movies. Sure they're cringey at times but so much fun

 

[Top_Cat]

I'm sure I read something about Ponting acknowledging that he himself had realised, following his 100th test, that he had already reached his peak and would only further decline.

Ponting staying on for his last few years was one of the least selfish actions by a cricketer

Ponting averaging what he did, and with his experience, was better than any other available option at the time and would have left us with a tremendous hole had he decided to protest his average

It was sad to see though

Massive Ponting fan here, I don't quite buy it was entirely an altruistic thing. I'm sure he believed it but I also think he just didn't want to go. You can see bloke missed the game a lot. Every time I see him talking about it, he's just dying to still be out there.

 

[a massive zebra]

Inzamam-ul-Haq, Misbah-ul-Haq, JC Adams, Saeed Ahmed, Sarfraz Ahmed, DL Amiss, HM Amla, M Azharuddin, GS Ballance, EJ Barlow, KC Bland, BC Booth, G Boycott, DM Bravo, WA Brown, BF Butcher, SL Campbell, MJ Clarke, HL Collins, AN Cook, RM Cowper, Q de Kock, ER Dexter, BL D'Oliveira, PJL Dujon, F du Plessis, GA Faulkner, JHW Fingleton, G Gambhir, SC Ganguly, AC Gilchrist, DI Gower, CG Greenidge, AW Greig, Mominul Haque, J Hardstaff jnr, RN Harvey, AL Hassett, VS Hazare, EH Hendren, DPMD Jayawardene, AH Jones, DM Jones, AI Kallicharran, Mohsin Khan, UT Khawaja, WM Lawry, DS Lehmann, DR Martyn, AD Mathews, SJ McCabe, RB McCosker, CC McDonald, CP Mead, Shoaib Mohammad, AR Morris, NCL O'Neill, PH Parfitt, KP Pietersen, WH Ponsford, G Pullar, AM Rahane, JF Reid, MH Richardson, LG Rowe, JA Rudolph, JD Ryder, TT Samaraweera, V Sehwag, MJ Slater, GC Smith, RA Smith, JB Stollmeyer, AJ Strauss, MA Taylor, IJL Trott, GM Turner, MP Vaughan, KD Walters, DA Warner, WM Woodfull and FMM Worrell all averaged over 50 at one point (having scored at least 1000 runs).

Wow the one that sticks out to me there is Sherwin Campbell who finished with a career average of just 32, so the second half of his career must have been horific.

Dujon also finished with a low 30s average but he had a much longer career and was a wicket keeper first and foremost, so we can let him off.

 

[Daemon]

Did we really have any better alternatives during 0-8 tho?

I remember the narrative at the time being we might as well have our veteran, past their prime batsmen grind us through it than bring in the new gen and scar them early. Dravid was immense in England, but Viru and Laxman were poor too right?

The point isn't that they weren't dropped. The point is that he was resting on their #1 and WC laurels, skipped a tour and then played on despite knowing they weren't up for a fight.

Also the focus isn't 0-8, it's the 4 series and 12 matches he played after that searching for his 100 and the 200 Tests, where there were 100% better batsmen waiting for a chance.