The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[jimmy101]

For an ATG XI or an ATVG XI? For the former I'd have Trumper and Morris/Ponsford.

ATG working downwards, yeah. Morris & Ponsford are both excellent batting partners for Trumper, who is clearly a lock.

The problem I have with the ATVG category is it's rather hard to define an ATVG. I for example rate Richie Benaud as an ATG, yet others here catergorize him as an ATVG.

 

[trundler]

Benaud is an ATG too for me. Say, a lower tier ATG like Pollock or Walsh.

Trumper is pretty much a lock. PEWS adjusted his average to 49 IIRC. That's great for an opener. Plus he'd take the opposition on and get my team off to a flier. Ponsford/Morris with their contrasting defensive styles would be excellent foils. Both could bat long.

 

[trundler]

The following are pretty much locks in an Australian ATG XI: Bradman, Warne, Trumper, Chappell G, McGrath and Lillee.

 

[jimmy101]

The following are pretty much locks in an Australian ATG XI: Bradman, Warne, Trumper, Chappell G, McGrath and Lillee.

Out of that lot I'd say only Braddles, Trumper & Lillee are locks.

Warne has competition from O'Reilly. Greg Chappell (who makes my ATG XI comfortably) can conceivably be challenged by a number of middle order batsmen such Harvey, McCabe, C Hill, Border, S Waugh, Ponting & S Smith to name a few. For me, McGrath isn't head & shoulders above the likes of Spofforth, Turner, Lindwall or Davidson either.

 

[trundler]

For me McGrath is even above Lillee himself. Warne has 2 tough competitors but since it's hard to judge them he almost universally gets picked. Chappell was just so good at #4 that I cant think of moving him from there or having anyone else instead. Ponting bats 5 in my ATG XI.

IIRC Spofforth's adjusted average came to about 26 in PEWS's work. I imagine the same would happen to Terror Turner. Both of them played far too long ago. If I'm not wrong, bowlers didn't even use swing back then. Since the sport and playing conditions were vastly different, I don't meddle with 19th century bowlers. Trumper is an obvious exception. Was just that good. Lindwall is the 3rd seamer in my XI, beating Davidson for the #8 position. Davidson is a good shout too but he just gets beaten by the other 3 pacers.

 

[jimmy101]

Yes, Spofforth & Turner played in an era of diabolical pitches, and I can completely understand their averages would rise bowling on the roads of today. They were however highly influential on the game as a whole, and were for a long time household names. Not only that, but at their respective peaks they were undoubtedly the best fast bowlers in the world by a mile. And yes, that's right, the first bowlers to meddle with swing probably would have been SF Barnes & JB King.

I too used to write off pre-WWI batsmen, thinking their batting techniques were archaic, but then I saw some footage of Charlie Kelleway playing the crispest cut shots & cover drives that looked just as good as Sachin's & as textbook as you could imagine. Wouldn't have looked out of place in today's age at all either. So if that's how Kelleway batted, Trumper must have been amazing.

Now that we're on it, I don't think I've posted an ATG Aussie team here yet.

Trumper
Simpson
Bradman*
G Chappell
McCabe
Miller
Gilchrist+
Lindwall
Warne
Lillee
McGrath

O'Reilly in for McGrath on spinning surfaces.

 

[Bolo]

Trumper clearly not a lock for me. So far back that he leaves huge question marks. No problem with anyone picking him, but there is also good reason not to.

Lillee not a lock either. Likely playing two spinners, Miller and McGrath are my two first picks and left arm plus batting is a reasonable argument for Davidson.

Bradman is clear. Gilchrist should be in by overwhelming concensus, but I guess some people will opt for a pure keeper. I struggle to think of any reason not to pick Miller though, so he deserves a shout.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Yes, Spofforth & Turner played in an era of diabolical pitches, and I can completely understand their averages would rise bowling on the roads of today. They were however highly influential on the game as a whole, and were for a long time household names. Not only that, but at their respective peaks they were undoubtedly the best fast bowlers in the world by a mile. And yes, that's right, the first bowlers to meddle with swing probably would have been SF Barnes & JB King.

I too used to write off pre-WWI batsmen, thinking their batting techniques were archaic, but then I saw some footage of Charlie Kelleway playing the crispest cut shots & cover drives that looked just as good as Sachin's & as textbook as you could imagine. Wouldn't have looked out of place in today's age at all either. So if that's how Kelleway batted, Trumper must have been amazing.

Now that we're on it, I don't think I've posted an ATG Aussie team here yet.

Trumper
Simpson
Bradman*
G Chappell
McCabe
Miller
Gilchrist+
Lindwall
Warne
Lillee
McGrath

O'Reilly in for McGrath on spinning surfaces.

You're gonna drop McGrath and keep Lillee on spinning surfaces aka Asia? Uhmm. Okay.







Anyone else wanna tell him?

 

[jimmy101]

You're gonna drop McGrath and keep Lillee on spinning surfaces aka Asia? Uhmm. Okay.

I was thinking more of a surface like the SCG when I said that. As for Asian conditions, McGrath & Lillee were both exceptional cutters of the ball, they would reap much better rewards in Asia than Lindwall, and so I would sub out Lindwall for O'Reilly in that circumstance.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

I was thinking more of a surface like the SCG when I said that. As for Asian conditions, McGrath & Lillee were both exceptional cutters of the ball, they would reap much better rewards in Asia than Lindwall, and so I would sub out Lindwall for O'Reilly in that circumstance.

You're seriously gonna play Lillee in Asia? Look - tbh - I'm not even 100% he's gonna want to make the tour even if selected.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I'd pick Lyon ahead of Warne on Asian surfaces.

Semi srs.

 

[jimmy101]

You're seriously gonna play Lillee in Asia? Look - tbh - I'm not even 100% he's gonna want to make the tour even if selected.

As far I can tell Lillee only ever toured Asia in 1980 when he played in Pakistan (and didn't do very well), but I still think he'd thrive to an extent. Warne & O'Reilly, the two best leg-spinners of all time, would lead the attack.

Then again, I dunno, Lindwall was also a big cutter of the ball and had a brilliant slower ball. I find separating McGrath/Lillee/Lindwall to be like splitting hairs tbh.

 

[Bolo]

McGrath wasn't great in Asia. One excellent series and a whole bunch of mediocre to poor stuff by his standards. Lillee is basically untested in Asia. I still pick McGrath for Asia because he proved himself better than most, but it's not like he was Steyn or Marshall in Asia.

Edit- just compared his stats in asia to Marshalls. Virtually identical in every way.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

As far I can tell Lillee only ever toured Asia in 1980 when he played in Pakistan (and didn't do very well), but I still think he'd thrive to an extent. Warne & O'Reilly, the two best leg-spinners of all time, would lead the attack.

Then again, I dunno, Lindwall was also a big cutter of the ball and had a brilliant slower ball. I find separating McGrath/Lillee/Lindwall to be like splitting hairs tbh.

You're mossing his fail in SL when they were still a minnow.

Lillee also 'rested' himself from an Asian tour.

Yet he ended up with a pace academy there.

 

[trundler]

Marshall and McGrath have taken almost the same amount of wickets, in the same amount of average, at almost the same average. McGrath was great all over the world. In this regard I would say he is like Tendulkar. Great everywhere, on all surfaces which sets him apart (like Marshall). My Australian XI would be:
Trumper
Morris
The Don
Chapell G
Ponting
Miller
Gilchrist
Lindwall
Warne
Lillee
McGrath
In Asia, I would have Benaud ahead of Warne. Guy was a terror in Asia. O'Reilly comes in for one of the quicks except McGrath. Lillee had all the necessary tools to succeed in Asia as well. Unsure of Lindwall but that's due to my lack of knowledge.

 

[Bolo]

Marshall and McGrath have taken almost the same amount of wickets, in the same amount of average, at almost the same average. McGrath was great all over the world. In this regard I would say he is like Tendulkar. Great everywhere, on all surfaces which sets him apart (like Marshall). My Australian XI would be:
Trumper
Morris
The Don
Chapell G
Ponting
Miller
Gilchrist
Lindwall
Warne
Lillee
McGrath
In Asia, I would have Benaud ahead of Warne. Guy was a terror in Asia. O'Reilly comes in for one of the quicks except McGrath. Lillee had all the necessary tools to succeed in Asia as well. Unsure of Lindwall but that's due to my lack of knowledge.

There's still a gap between him and Marshall for Asian countries in the did well everywhere criteria. McGrath didn't do very well in Pakistan (average 31) and failed in Lanka. Marshall only played two Asian countries, but did fine in both.

 

[trundler]

Of course he's below Marshall. Marshall is #1 for a reason but McGrath did reasonably well. He didn't do badly either. Plus he played just 1 series in both countries. McGrath averages below 30 in 7/8 countries he's played in. That's exceptional.

 

[OverratedSanity]

McGrath didn't do very well in Pakistan (average 31) and failed in Lanka.

This kind of analysis which strips away all context from a player's performances and uses an arbitrary number over a small sample to decide if he succeeded or not is pretty much meaningless.

 

[OverratedSanity]

McGrath didn't do very well in Pakistan (average 31) and failed in Lanka.

This kind of analysis which strips away all context from a player's performances and uses an arbitrary number over a small sample to decide if he succeeded or not is pretty much meaningless.

 

[harsh.ag]

Change your avatar ffs you disgustoid