*Unofficial* New Zealand Black Caps Thread

[SteveNZ]

Forcing Kane away from cricket if he doesn't want to be away from cricket is probably far more harmful than whatever justification NZC might come up with, tbf.

If Kane wants to play, let him play. If Kane doesn't want to play, don't make him play.

I'd be very surprised if he wasn't a big part of the decision. I can't see them dictating terms to their captain and best player.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

You'd hope they've learned from the Taylor debacle, as well.

 

[Chewie]

Neesham going to wellington

 

[Dan]

Ha, yep. Otago could be in some strife here.

 

[NZTailender]

Ha, yep. Otago could be in some strife here.

They were already in strife, now they're up **** creek.

 

[straw man]

Neesham going to wellington

Otago replacing Wellington as the NZ domestic basket-case. They were still good a couple of seasons ago so it's been a quick slide - you'd have to think things were already bad internally last season, and then the coach dropping half the senior players for that match on top of that had everyone scrambling to find a place elsewhere.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

I wonder if Rutherford will go next. It’s going to be really sad to watch them ... considering they could barely win a game this year.

If I was them I’d try and lure McCullum back in some way, shape or form. It feels like he should be contributing in some way to stopping this slide.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

I wonder if Rutherford will go next. It’s going to be really sad to watch them ... considering they could barely win a game this year.

If I was them I’d try and lure McCullum back in some way, shape or form. It feels like he should be contributing in some way to stopping this slide.

Which McCullum? Brendon is full time on the T20 circuits. He wants to get into coaching franchise T20 and commentary after T20 anyway.

 

[SteveNZ]

I wonder if Rutherford will go next. It’s going to be really sad to watch them ... considering they could barely win a game this year.

If I was them I’d try and lure McCullum back in some way, shape or form. It feels like he should be contributing in some way to stopping this slide.

He's done his time. Otago seems like it needs a radical culture change, led from the top at Board level right through. Brendon coming back might be a silver bullet of sorts but there's more that needs attending to.

Funny that Jimmy posted a bit of a finger up at media after they destroyed Auckland in the 4-dayers, in response to an article that the culture was toxic. I'm not having a go at Jimmy at all and a lot of sports men go that way, but shows it was obviously spot on. He's not going to Wellington for more opportunities given he has the run of the town in Otago. Wags might've gone to the Mount for the climate but Jimmy isn't going to Wellington to get a sun tan.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

He's done his time. Otago seems like it needs a radical culture change, led from the top at Board level right through. Brendon coming back might be a silver bullet of sorts but there's more that needs attending to.

Funny that Jimmy posted a bit of a finger up at media after they destroyed Auckland in the 4-dayers, in response to an article that the culture was toxic. I'm not having a go at Jimmy at all and a lot of sports men go that way, but shows it was obviously spot on. He's not going to Wellington for more opportunities given he has the run of the town in Otago. Wags might've gone to the Mount for the climate but Jimmy isn't going to Wellington to get a sun tan.

Otago dropping him last year aside, Jimmy, in all seriousness, with international cricket looking further away for him right now, actually needs to think about his winter career opportunities, and I imagine that Wellington is a good place to accommodate such transitions from the field into offices.

Jimmy seems to suffer a similar problem to Cory Anderson, they want to get by on their batting and not work on their bowling, but their batting value is so limited if they're not bringing good bowling to the table. They're just not reliable enough as batsmen to not be working their butts off in the bowling department.

Jimmy Neesham seems like an intelligent enough player, and he has physical attributes that make him a potentially useful 5th bowler, but he's got to want to work at his bowling and be surer upon ball release what it is he trying to execute, because I am sure it is not all these wides.

I recall Jimmy Neesham after scoring a 50 in an odi in Australia saying he would like to bat in the top 4 for NZ. I remember thinking at the time, Jimmy, you don't even have a list A 100!

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...s-new-zealand-2nd-odi-nz-tour-of-aus-2016-17/

 

[The Hutt Rec]

Which McCullum? Brendon is full time on the T20 circuits. He wants to get into coaching franchise T20 and commentary after T20 anyway.

Brendon ... I'm aware he plays t20 overseas ... and not even necessarily as a player, but even an off-season mentoring program or something like that, I'm sure there's some way he could contribute.

Although in an ideal world (and I know it's not possible due to the Big Bash clash) I'd like to see his type of player still turning out domestically in the Super Smash. Not like he's going to be holding back a better youngster in Otago's case.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Brendon ... I'm aware he plays t20 overseas ... and not even necessarily as a player, but even an off-season mentoring program or something like that, I'm sure there's some way he could contribute.

Although in an ideal world (and I know it's not possible due to the Big Bash clash) I'd like to see his type of player still turning out domestically in the Super Smash. Not like he's going to be holding back a better youngster in Otago's case.

Between his prioritising of the BBL, PSL and BPL over NZC's season let alone the IPL, CPL, and NatWest Blast, I would be highly surprised if Brendon McCullum is targetting a future in NZ as a first choice career path from here on in.

He has said that he will be tagetting coaching and commentary options; and lets face it, NZ is not where the money is for these gigs. Personally I am not entirely convinced that the will crack it as a commentator, but I think he could easily slip into a Dan Vettori or Steve Flemming coach type role somewhere, and yes they're earning some serious bucks from just the IPL before their BBL or any further cheques from any further tournaments.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

Yeah, I think it's a shame that all of those three aren't contributing to NZ cricket atm. Well, maybe not Vettori, he probably needs a decade off after filling every possible role in the team for several years.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Yeah, I think it's a shame that all of those three aren't contributing to NZ cricket atm. Well, maybe not Vettori, he probably needs a decade off after filling every possible role in the team for several years.

I don't think with Hesson we need Flemming, and Vettorri isn't exactly shooting the lights out with his coaching to be fair.

Who we need is Bond, who makes himself available for the odd gig in between his franchise commitments that pay better, and I am grateful and respectful that he does that. He took the NZA tour to India last year. What a good thing to do for NZC. Yes he got paid for it I am sure, but I appreciate having someone with his skill set helping the likes of Matt Henry improve.

 

[CharlesLara]

Otago dropping him last year aside, Jimmy, in all seriousness, with international cricket looking further away for him right now, actually needs to think about his winter career opportunities, and I imagine that Wellington is a good place to accommodate such transitions from the field into offices.

Jimmy seems to suffer a similar problem to Cory Anderson, they want to get by on their batting and not work on their bowling, but their batting value is so limited if they're not bringing good bowling to the table. They're just not reliable enough as batsmen to not be working their butts off in the bowling department.

Jimmy Neesham seems like an intelligent enough player, and he has physical attributes that make him a potentially useful 5th bowler, but he's got to want to work at his bowling and be surer upon ball release what it is he trying to execute, because I am sure it is not all these wides.

I recall Jimmy Neesham after scoring a 50 in an odi in Australia saying he would like to bat in the top 4 for NZ. I remember thinking at the time, Jimmy, you don't even have a list A 100!

2nd ODI (D/N), New Zealand tour of Australia at Canberra, Dec 6 2016 | Match Summary | ESPNCricinfo

Spot on. Was writing out a rant (LOL) but thankfully you summed up my feelings perfectly. How many guys apart from the obvious Kane, Wags, Trent and Santner, maybe Nicholls seem to be continually improving cricketers. This seems to be an issue around the country. Jimmy still playing off feats of years ago, but because of the chronic lack of depth coupled with the lack of ACTUAL development he's been able to get by. Likewise with Rutherford, Craig? These guys have digressed or stagnated. I won't even begin to mention the problem with guys like Rob Nicol. Nice bloke, but highest score of 40 off the whole of 2018 AND he's the captain. Thats another discussion though.

 

[The Hutt Rec]

I don't think with Hesson we need Flemming, and Vettorri isn't exactly shooting the lights out with his coaching to be fair.

Who we need is Bond, who makes himself available for the odd gig in between his franchise commitments that pay better, and I am grateful and respectful that he does that. He took the NZA tour to India last year. What a good thing to do for NZC. Yes he got paid for it I am sure, but I appreciate having someone with his skill set helping the likes of Matt Henry improve.

I’m sorry I brought it up.

 

[SteveNZ]

My issue is with talent progression in our national side. Yeah, who is improving? Mike Hesson is a great man manager who has created an environment that is well planned and established for guys with harnessed talent, ie Kane Ross Tim Trent Gup etc to perform. But he's not at all surrounded by strong technical coaches. McMillan and Jurgensen are your bargain basement, we look good as batting and bowling coaches when Kane/Ross/Gup score runs and Tim/Trent take wickets or the other guys perform against lesser sides. But who's getting better, who's going from domestic bully and bit-part international performer to producing world class performances? Not many.

Jimmy could be maybe not world class but very good if he had the right coaches (and professionalism possibly, I dunno. I like the guy, I don't see how hard or not hard he works). There's guys around him, Tom Latham a perfect example, that could be very very good but they're restricted by the tutelage they receive.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

My issue is with talent progression in our national side. Yeah, who is improving? Mike Hesson is a great man manager who has created an environment that is well planned and established for guys with harnessed talent, ie Kane Ross Tim Trent Gup etc to perform. But he's not at all surrounded by strong technical coaches. McMillan and Jurgensen are your bargain basement, we look good as batting and bowling coaches when Kane/Ross/Gup score runs and Tim/Trent take wickets or the other guys perform against lesser sides. But who's getting better, who's going from domestic bully and bit-part international performer to producing world class performances? Not many.

Jimmy could be maybe not world class but very good if he had the right coaches (and professionalism possibly, I dunno. I like the guy, I don't see how hard or not hard he works). There's guys around him, Tom Latham a perfect example, that could be very very good but they're restricted by the tutelage they receive.

I'm not a fan of Nicholls. I didn't think he was good enough for the test or odi teams. But I happily concede, each year, he looks more improved, less spud like, and I can see the development in his shot range and selection. He keeps getting better, as he should be!

I want to see Tim improve, especially in pyjamas and I think this IPL was good for him. So hopefully we see more there. I think Matt Henry is getting better, but he is so often a sub it is hard to tell. Santner is definitely always getting better with new deliveries and shots (but he started from a low baseline) and I would still have Astle ahead of him in tests.

I honestly do not know what to make of Tom Latham apart from stop flashing outside off (cover drives) so early when opening and not set.

CdG despite all his limitations with playing leg spinners, just keeps exceeding expectations in test cricket. And that is something we can truly rejoice as NZC fans. But despite his great odi stats, there's only one match winning performance, and a lot of losses, he needs to up his ratio here, and work on batting vs leg spin and bowling more and tight overs as Munro may not be in the side forever to save his butt.

I feel better equipped as a NZC fan a year out from the World Cup than I did about the Champions Trophy with Broom, Anderson and Neesham being injured or not fit for purpose.

Anderson may never get his circa 2014-16 groove back pre injuries in odi. But I think NZC is making good head way without Broom, Neesh or an essential Cory.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Spot on. Was writing out a rant (LOL) but thankfully you summed up my feelings perfectly. How many guys apart from the obvious Kane, Wags, Trent and Santner, maybe Nicholls seem to be continually improving cricketers. This seems to be an issue around the country. Jimmy still playing off feats of years ago, but because of the chronic lack of depth coupled with the lack of ACTUAL development he's been able to get by. Likewise with Rutherford, Craig? These guys have digressed or stagnated. I won't even begin to mention the problem with guys like Rob Nicol. Nice bloke, but highest score of 40 off the whole of 2018 AND he's the captain. Thats another discussion though.

One swallow doth not make a summer. Agreed.

NZC domestic is either an enigma or a product of its environment. We know we have shabby spring pitches like England that make it tough to bat on, but we produce flat wickets for many of our tests of late. So our bowlers seem to be a bit lazy expecting the pitch or conditions to do more than they do at international, and our batsmen seem to lack the know how to play long innings well as they have little experience of it. I want us to start improving the FC pitches to better resemble intl wickets, or have our intl wickets resemble our FC ones. And if you think they're already the same, there's the enigma (bar short boundaries which I don't buy for red ball cricket at all).

There's no point in having players practice and aspire in an environment that's radically different. We need to make the transition difference from domestic to international as small as possible. Australia has caught on preparing their lads for England tours by using a Duke ball. What is NZ doing to helps its cricketers win more on stepping up?

Because I do not think giving Lockie and Bennett et al 3 months of October, November and December to absolutely dominate batsmen with possibly mediocre bowling on pitches turning their pies into hand grenades is doing them or the batsmen any good. And if this isn't the problem, what is?

 

[SteveNZ]

I'm not a fan of Nicholls. I didn't think he was good enough for the test or odi teams. But I happily concede, each year, he looks more improved, less spud like, and I can see the development in his shot range and selection. He keeps getting better, as he should be!

I want to see Tim improve, especially in pyjamas and I think this IPL was good for him. So hopefully we see more there. I think Matt Henry is getting better, but he is so often a sub it is hard to tell. Santner is definitely always getting better with new deliveries and shots (but he started from a low baseline) and I would still have Astle ahead of him in tests.

I honestly do not know what to make of Tom Latham apart from stop flashing outside off (cover drives) so early when opening and not set.

CdG despite all his limitations with playing leg spinners, just keeps exceeding expectations in test cricket. And that is something we can truly rejoice as NZC fans. But despite his great odi stats, there's only one match winning performance, and a lot of losses, he needs to up his ratio here, and work on batting vs leg spin and bowling more and tight overs as Munro may not be in the side forever to save his butt.

I feel better equipped as a NZC fan a year out from the World Cup than I did about the Champions Trophy with Broom, Anderson and Neesham being injured or not fit for purpose.

Anderson may never get his circa 2014-16 groove back pre injuries in odi. But I think NZC is making good head way without Broom, Neesh or an essential Cory.

I'm not a fan of Nicholls' technique at all, but what he has is application and mindset over his countrymen. He was picked largely off 150 odd v Sri Lanka A in a four-day game, which was about as agricultural an innings as you'd ever see. Colin Munro could've played that innings (but didn't). Since then he's made scores, the incredibly good Test tons against SA and England because of his mental application. His technique has holes all over it but he's able to overcome it. If someone - and it ain't Craig McMillan - could sort his technique out, his being stuck outside off stump, his predilection to get caught using half a blade early on, he'd be world class because he's mentally tough. He isn't picked in T20s and he struggles greatly in ODIs (Colin DG basically saved his ODI career v Pakistan) because of his limitations to score. But in Tests, he can overcome it with patience and grit, and sometimes does. I didn't like him at all early on but now I rate the guy because of his mental grit and just pray someone gets hold of him who knows what they're doing and turns him into our dependable #5, because he absolutely can be.

Then there's guys like Latham, Munro, Neesham, Anderson, Henry etc who don't have that sort of mental aptitude but could become confident, world-class cricketers if they're given the technical tools by the right coaches. But they're not. They're the guys that would make us World Cup winners/Test powerhouses if they became guys who scored at 40+ averages and took wickets at >30.