Wastemen etc

[TheJediBrah]

Fair enough. You noticed identified the same word. You have to look at context though. We are talking about Shakib suffering from lack of Test matches. How does this apply to Lillee and Chappell?

 

[Mr Miyagi]

That's a pretty big mis-step though. All the bemoaning in the world of his limited opportunities rings pretty hollow when he just decided not to bother playing possibly the toughest away tour Bangladesh have. Wipes away any credit he had with that one action IMO

I feel the same way about Lillee missing Asian tours. Greg Chappel too.

So if anything is a mis-setp, it is probably wiping away "any credit" with one action

If we start dismissing players for missing a tour or games outside of injury, there's going to be a lot of greats crossed off.

There's that straw man again. What "credit"? Lillee and Chappell played for Australia didn't they? They didn't have a dearth of Test matches. Even ignoring the issues of safety/health touring Asia, money, lack of T20 as an alternative even existing etc. it's already completely irrelevant. You can say that you don't count Lillee's career at all because he refused to tour Asia, or you can say he's literally the devil because you hate moustaches. Don't care, nothing to do with what I'm saying.

All you had to say was "I don't hold it against him maybe he just wanted a break" or something like that. You didn't have to invent all this other stuff to be arguing about dude

.

Fair enough. You noticed identified the same word. You have to look at context though. We are talking about Shakib suffering from lack of Test matches. How does this apply to Lillee and Chappell?

And now JediBrah, this conversation has literally gone full circle. Does this happen to you often on here?

 

[TheJediBrah]

.





And now JediBrah, this conversation has literally gone full circle. Does this happen to you often on here?

I've been trying to tell you that for a page and a half lol. You're still arguing about something completely different to me. I'm not talking about players records or legacies or anything of the sort. You invented that and latched onto it.

 

[Starfighter]

This debate would be so much better if Mr Miyagi even had a skerrick of a point. In the absence of that it just becomes one big scroll-through.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

I've been trying to tell you that for a page and a half lol. You're still arguing about something completely different to me. I'm not talking about players records or legacies or anything of the sort. You invented that and latched onto it.

Which part of my very first reply post to you of "So if anything is a mis-setp, it is probably wiping away "any credit" with one [missed tour] action" are you not quite comprehending? Even if you're clearly not fond of or just not grasping analogical reasoning.

Apologies Starfighter, and I am sorry that you don't think that I have a point. I will cease with JediBrah for the sake of the forum before this goes full circle yet again.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Which part of "So if anything is a mis-setp, it is probably wiping away "any credit" with one [missed tour] action" are you not quite comprehending? Even if you're clearly not fond of or just not grasping analogical reasoning.

Apologies Starfighter, and I am sorry that you don't think that I have a point. I will cease with JediBrah for the sake of the forum before this goes full circle yet again.

You don't have to be a dick about it. I've clearly explained to you several times now why it's got nothing to do with anything I've said. You've refused to accept it and gone on repeatedly with your imaginary argument, that's on you.

 

[S.Kennedy]

Stokes has a piss poor T20 record, especially with the ball. One of those dudes who you think would be perfect for the format but actually prefers the longer versions.

Not really perfect when you consider the fact Stokes is essentially a reverse swing bowler and has always been expensive (obviously less important the longer the format).

 

[Mr Miyagi]

You don't have to be a dick about it.

JediBrah, lets be honest here - after what you've posted in this thread, if I had wanted to be a dick, I would have written 'Sorry, I just incorrectly assumed that English was your native language and that you had sufficient "reading comprehension" skills to recognise analogous and abstract reasoning of arguments surrounding the credit of players who missed tours instead of thinking of them as "imaginary arguments" but I am sure you would understand this in your language.'

I think it best we part ways in this thread before we upset too many of the locals.

Moving forward, I am happy to be your forum pal.

What is your native tongue by the way? *jokes*

 

[TheJediBrah]

JediBrah, lets be honest here - after what you've posted in this thread, if I had wanted to be a dick, I would have said "Sorry, I just incorrectly assumed that English was your native language and that you had sufficient "reading comprehension" skills to recognise analogous and abstract reasoning instead of thinking of them as "imaginary arguments" but I am sure you would understand this in your language.

I think it best we part ways before we upset too many of the locals.

Dude we don't even really disagree on anything. You've just misread me on so many levels, there's no reason we can't be online friends. In all seriousness you seem like a pretty intelligent person.

As I said before, I wasn't trying to be a dick with the "second language" stuff, I was actually specifically trying not to be a dick because if it is your second language (I don't know) then your language skills are far superior to mine.

 

[Red]

I'm not going to call Chappell a liar - but he said he missed tours in the 1980's for business reasons. I am not sure on whether it was the 70's 80's or both for Lillee.

Which is probably mostly true as well. There was likely no financial incentive at that time to play cricket in the subcontinent. Cricketers were no where near as well paid then, this was only a short time after WSC happened.

Combine that with having a young family you need to support and add the risk of getting some sort of disease that might incapacitate you for a long time and it's pretty easy to see why Chappell or Lillee would be reluctant to go.

Contrasting that with Shakib not touring SA makes basically zero sense at all. Shakib's net worth is apparently upwards of 30 million dollars. Hardly a reasonable comparison.

 

[NotMcKenzie]

Chappell also missed a tour of England, so it wasn't just a desire to avoid touring the subcontinent.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Chappell also missed a tour of England, so it wasn't just a desire to avoid touring the subcontinent.

Yeah, but . . . England. Tours were longer back then and that place's weather alone is enough to make anyone depressed.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Which is probably mostly true as well. There was likely no financial incentive at that time to play cricket in the subcontinent. Cricketers were no where near as well paid then, this was only a short time after WSC happened.

Combine that with having a young family you need to support and add the risk of getting some sort of disease that might incapacitate you for a long time and it's pretty easy to see why Chappell or Lillee would be reluctant to go.

Contrasting that with Shakib not touring SA makes basically zero sense at all. Shakib's net worth is apparently upwards of 30 million dollars. Hardly a reasonable comparison.

Not sure where you're going with this to be honest. There's the financial aspect: Chappell had different avenues to pursue than international cricket to make money, as does Shakib, so they both missed a tour as that pays less?

Then there's the health aspect: Chapell may have got sick if he toured, Shakib said he was already exhausted and wanted some time off to recover. And Greg Chappell of all people will understand the effects of exhaustion as that is what he believes led to his underarm decision.

Then you bring up supporting a young family: which Shakib also does.

And then your clincher is that Shakib is reportedly already rich (but we don't really know how much he has blown or invested into losses) - but what this has to do with anything is unclear except that it gives Shakib no financial incentive to play tours that he doesn't want to, like Chappel. And also Shakib, like Chappell, may want to continue accumulating more wealth. He may be happy with his lot now. But if he thought playing exhausted would limit his opportunities or effect his health, either way this is an issue. Shakib may soon decide he has enough money to priortise tests over t20 when feeling exhausted. He may now have sufficient stamina. He may have been sued if he missed his T20 contract requirements, or lose his potential market value in the future as being seen as a ricky pick who won't show up. And we don't know what his views and values as a young man before having a wife and kids.

Intuitively this may all seem like a poor analogy to you. But on the factual comparison, it has more than sufficient similarity. Just missing a tour or two, is a small piece of the career-tapestry of many cricketers, that does not wipe out arguments about their entire careers. It influences the weight of them, sure. But its no death blow immediate descent into unreasonableness.

 

[Borges]

Chappell also missed a tour of England, so it wasn't just a desire to avoid touring the subcontinent.

It wasn't a desire to avoid England either: he did play county cricket.

 

[Prince EWS]

Not sure where you're going with this to be honest. There's the financial aspect: Chappell had different avenues to pursue than international cricket to make money, as does Shakib, so they both missed a tour as that pays less?

I think there's a fundamental difference here as Shakib didn't go and make more money doing something else while that tour was on as Chappell (apparently) did; he just sat on his arse.

Missing a tour to do something else is one thing, but missing a tour to rest up to ensure you're at your freshest while doing something else later seems like a different level of dire to me.

I do think the idea that Shakib skipping a tour somehow irreparably damaged his legacy by skipping a tour is a pretty massive over-reaction to the event, but I do think the situation with Chappell was a bit different to his.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

I think there's a fundamental difference here as Shakib didn't go and make more money doing something else while that tour was on as Chappell (apparently) did; he just sat on his arse.

Missing a tour to do something else is one thing, but missing a tour to rest up to ensure you're at your freshest while doing something else later seems like a different level of dire to me.

Oh I am sure that Chappell managed to squeeze in a holiday at some time so as to freshen up when he was playing his many years as a professional cricketer. It isn't like Shakib has retired from tests. And I doubt that Shakib wanted to be so exhausted. And his "ABdV-type" approach has been limited to one period. It doesn't change the last 11 years, and may not change the future.

Plus you're looking solely prospectively if I may dare to be so bold. Shakib was already exhausted because he was doing something else to earn money. And why is freshening up dire?

Either way, both missed international cricket with financial and business rationale involved in the decision making, be it prospective or retrospective.

 

[NotMcKenzie]

It wasn't a desire to avoid England either: he did play county cricket.

Except that he played county cricket (for Somerset) in 1968 and 69, which in case you didn't know was before his test debut.



Anyway, my point is that it he wasn't just avoiding the more difficult tours.

 

[TheJediBrah]

I think there's a fundamental difference here as Shakib didn't go and make more money doing something else while that tour was on as Chappell (apparently) did; he just sat on his arse.

Missing a tour to do something else is one thing, but missing a tour to rest up to ensure you're at your freshest while doing something else later seems like a different level of dire to me.

I do think the idea that Shakib skipping a tour somehow irreparably damaged his legacy by skipping a tour is a pretty massive over-reaction to the event, but I do think the situation with Chappell was a bit different to his.

I think the main difference is that we're talking about Shakib as a guy who is unlucky not to play more Tests, then he went ahead and skipped a major Test your for (seemingly) not great reasoning.

In this context comparing it to Chappell is not really relevant, even if you think they are equally "guilty" of being lazy/skipping tours. Chappell played as many Tests as anyone and no one's really complaining about him having a lack of opportunity.

I think Mr Miyagi is concerned that people are writing of Shakib as a player in general, and questioning his place among the greats, just because he skipped a tour. Which is unfair, but I also don't think anyone is really doing that.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

Shakib is the man of the match in this thread.

 

[Starfighter]

Anyway, to get back on topic, Barry Knight.