Wastemen etc

[TheJediBrah]

You brought up money. If a cricketer can only play so many days cricket each year, and he priroritises money, then a non Big 3 cricketer will prirotise t20 over internationals. Fact.

So if the issue isn't money - and just internationals. Shakib missed 2 tests in SA, he is still far behind where he would be if he played for India, England or Australia. Fact.

Yes - Shakib is unlucky to have played for a country that has polayed only 20 something away tests in over the last 10 years. Fact.

So why is Shakib missing a tour to SA dismissed when Lillee and Chappel are not? I'm curious.

Why can he not complain about the FTP scheduling just cos he missed one away tour?

If you haven't understood it from my posts already, then you never will. No one's saying he hasn't suffered from lack of Tests, it's just hard to feel sorrow for him about it when he has such disregard for it himself.

And not sure what you think repeating "So why is Shakib missing a tour to SA dismissed when Lillee and Chappel are not? I'm curious." when it's been explained clearly and concisely several times already is going to achieve

 

[Mr Miyagi]

If you haven't understood it from my posts already, then you never will. No one's saying he hasn't suffered from lack of Tests, it's just hard to feel sorrow for him about it when he has such disregard for it himself.

And not sure what you think repeating "So why is Shakib missing a tour to SA dismissed when Lillee and Chappel are not? I'm curious." when it's been explained clearly and concisely several times already is going to achieve

So he has suffered from a lack of tests? Thank you.

You just don't feel sympathy for him cos he missed 2 tests in SA. Well that's on you. Whether he has played 51 tests after 11 years, or 55, it makes little difference to me. The international system has cost him an ATG record.

The rest of your post I don't understand. I don't find it clear and I find it too concise. First you talk of money, then not money, then it is just a myriad of inconsistencies as to what motivates players and what should.

And for the record: imo Lillee missed an Asia tour after failing there (bar Sri Lanka as noobs), he will never be in count for the greatest seamer as far as I am concerned But that is for a different thread and discussion.

 

[wpdavid]

Going back to the original point of discussion, Mike Procter's worth a shout. Maybe more of a bowler who could bat when he last played test cricket around 1970, but a genuine all-rounder by the mid-1970s.

 

[vcs]

Did you miss the part where Asia is not a nice play to visit? I'm not saying that South Africa is much better, stay there for long enough and getting murdered is basically a statistical certainty, but as a touring sportsman Asia in the 70s doesn't even compare to South Africa in 2017.

And besides money is more than a good enough reason by itself. They would have earned **** all for the tour back then, and I don't know why you bring up Shakib's earnings as if they are somehow relevant. The entire point of the discussion is that someone claimed he was "unlucky" not to play more Tests, which is clearly not something he's particularly concerned about.

Saying "he didn't tour because he could make more money playing T20" is 100% supporting my point. Not yours.

Not really a surprise they weren't afforded royal welcomes with behaviour like this.

Sometime in 1979 in Kanpur, the Australian cricketers had come up with a plan to break their boredom. They would queue up in front of the hotel windows and throw money out on the streets. Even as people below would scramble for the money, the players would empty a bucketful of water on them. They called it “Raining Rupees”. In his 1986 book, Allan Border mentions the shenanigans from the tour: “We took to dropping rupees and watch them scramble .We would fill up all the available receptacles in the hotel room with water, drop the coins and whoosh!”

Maybe the guys who sat out Asian tours did it out of principle, not wanting to be part of antics like that?

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Going back to the original point of discussion, Mike Procter's worth a shout. Maybe more of a bowler who could bat when he last played test cricket around 1970, but a genuine all-rounder by the mid-1970s.

Personally, and this is just my opinion on a sensitive topic of racism, I don't think cricket administrators can blamed for apartheid in South Africa nor should they be condemned for taking a stand against it. While the politics of Safrica caused Rice, Procter and Barlow to miss many games, to say that international cricket denied them a fair go in adopting Gleneagles, is to challenge equality and what the anti-aparheid ban sought to achieve. Were they unfortunate victims of their country's politics effecting talented sportsmen? Absolutely. Do I feel sympathy for their plight? Sure. Was there a greater good? Yes. And many of these guys could have played for England or migrated instead.

I personally have more issue with the white Afrikans cricketers missing out today to lesser talents like Bavuma and Berhadien via quotas than for Rice, Procter and Barlow missing games while Black Africans lived as lesser citizens. And I really rate Rice and Procter and Barlow before him. Hadlee and many more spoke of Rice repeatedly in god-like terms as a cricketer. He was that good, with bat and ball. Procter was the better of the two with Rice for the 1970's and possibly early 80's. He certainly was a force in cricket. But SA remains an unsual exception of national racism, and not cricket racism, which has probably been more felt elsewhere, until the SA quotas were introduced.

I believe in talent over skin colour. But I don't think that the intentions of Gleneagles was wrong and I am sure that it helped the black South Africans in the long run. Whether they have sorted it our right since is another matter altogether to discuss.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Not really a surprise they weren't afforded royal welcomes with behaviour like this.



Maybe the guys who sat out Asian tours did it out of principle, not wanting to be part of antics like that?

I wonder how nice Australia is to tour - oh wait - Shakib wouldn't even know, Bangladesh hasn't been there since 2003.

Guess we have to rely on the words of Moeen Ali being asked for kebabs.

 

[Borges]

Did you miss the part where Asia is not a nice play to visit?

Lillee may not have shared that particular opinion.
Starting soon after his retirement from international cricket, he spent time in India every year for 25 years or so (at the MRF pace foundation).
Though he may have thought that it is not a place that favoured his brand of bowling (his performances in Asia were pretty dismal).
That he decided to skip a tour to the sub-continent, for whatever reason, does not imply that it "wipes away any credit he had with that one action".

Just as that Shakib decided to skip test matches in South Africa, for whatever reason, does not imply that it "wipes away any credit he had with that one action".

 

[wpdavid]

Personally, and this is just my opinion on a sensitive topic of racism, I don't think cricket administrators can blamed for apartheid in South Africa nor should they be condemned for taking a stand against it. While the politics of Safrica caused Rice, Procter and Barlow to miss many games, to say that international cricket denied them a fair go in adopting Gleneagles, is to challenge equality and what the anti-aparheid ban sought to achieve. Were they unfortunate victims of their country's politics effecting talented sportsmen? Absolutely. Do I feel sympathy for their plight? Sure. Was there a greater good? Yes. And many of these guys could have played for England or migrated instead.

I personally have more issue with the white Afrikans cricketers missing out today to lesser talents like Bavuma and Berhadien via quotas than for Rice, Procter and Barlow missing games while Black Africans lived as lesser citizens. And I really rate Rice and Procter and Barlow before him. Hadlee and many more spoke of Rice repeatedly in god-like terms as a cricketer. He was that good, with bat and ball. Procter was the better of the two with Rice for the 1970's and possibly early 80's. He certainly was a force in cricket. But SA remains an unsual exception of national racism, and not cricket racism, which has probably been more felt elsewhere, until the SA quotas were introduced.

I believe in talent over skin colour. But I don't think that the intentions of Gleneagles was wrong and I am sure that it helped the black South Africans in the long run. Whether they have sorted it our right since is another matter altogether to discuss.

Agree with your first point, about the 1970's generation, even if it tends to ignore the plight of the non-white cricketers who never got a look-in at all. If D'Oliveira could carve out a decent test cricketer from his mid-30's, there must have been others. Less so your second one about the current one. But it's been done to death on CW, so don't be surprised if there isn't much interest in that particular debate. I was imply suggesting that Procter belonged in any discussion of all-rounders who were unlucky not to play more international cricket.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Lillee may not have shared that particular opinion.
Starting soon after his retirement from international cricket, he spent time in India every year for 25 years or so (at the MRF pace foundation).
Though he may have thought that it is not a place that favoured his brand of bowling (his performances in Asia were pretty dismal).
That he decided to skip a tour to the sub-continent, for whatever reason, does not imply that it "wipes away any credit he had with that one action".

Just as that Shakib decided to skip test matches in South Africa, for whatever reason, does not imply that it "wipes away any credit he had with that one action".

Amen brother. Amen.

But I'm curious as to lets argue that it does and see how an Australian wears his own anti-Shakib argument

JediBrah - the "trick" for the lack of a better word that I have pulled on you is not that you went after Shakib, you could have just said that he is crap and left it at that, but it is that you tried to defend your countrymen in the face of your own logic (possibly due to recent events) which was going to lose in reasonable public opinion as it will reveal inconcistent thinking, and I chose Lillee and G Chappell deliberately. Consistency is the standard we all want. Now I am not trying to say that you're a geographically and racially inconsistent person just because you're Aussie, but it is always an easy card to play and see how the trick turns out. And right now like many Aussies are famed for, it appears that you have called the wrong suit as trumps. The exception proves the rule, but sometimes the rule being proved isn't necessarily the one you're thinking of at the time.

See the bigger picutre, focus in on the detail, look at the bigger picture again after. If its changed, ask yourself why? Don't just march on. Save that that for Light Brigade.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Agree with your first point, about the 1970's generation, even if it tends to ignore the plight of the non-white cricketers who never got a look-in at all. If D'Oliveira could carve out a decent test cricketer from his mid-30's, there must have been others. Less so your second one about the current one. But it's been done to death on CW, so don't be surprised if there isn't much interest in that particular debate. I was imply suggesting that Procter belonged in any discussion of all-rounders who were unlucky not to play more international cricket.

Well given that only my first point was on topic re Procter, I'll take it. Thank you.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

The best of the lot might not get to play at the highest level :



Rahkeem Cornwall

 

[Daemon]

That reminds me - Jesse Ryder

 

[TheJediBrah]

So he has suffered from a lack of tests? Thank you.

You just don't feel sympathy for him cos he missed 2 tests in SA. Well that's on you. Whether he has played 51 tests after 11 years, or 55, it makes little difference to me. The international system has cost him an ATG record.

The rest of your post I don't understand. I don't find it clear and I find it too concise. First you talk of money, then not money, then it is just a myriad of inconsistencies as to what motivates players and what should.

And for the record: imo Lillee missed an Asia tour after failing there (bar Sri Lanka as noobs), he will never be in count for the greatest seamer as far as I am concerned But that is for a different thread and discussion.

It's because you've been trying to argue with me this whole time about something that I was never even talking about

you need to work on your reading comprehension

Amen brother. Amen.

But I'm curious as to lets argue that it does and see how an Australian wears his own anti-Shakib argument

JediBrah - the "trick" for the lack of a better word that I have pulled on you is not that you went after Shakib, you could have just said that he is crap and left it at that, but it is that you tried to defend your countrymen in the face of your own logic (possibly due to recent events) which was going to lose in reasonable public opinion as it will reveal incisistent thinking, and I chose Lillee and G Chappell deliberately. Consistency is the standard we all want. Now I am not trying to say that you're a geographically and racially inconsistent person just because you're Aussie, but it is always an easy card to play and see how the trick turns out. And right now like many Aussies are famed for, it appears that you have called the wrong suit as trumps. The exception proves the rule, but sometimes the rule being proved isn't necessarily the one you're thinking of at the time.

See the bigger picutre, focus in on the detail, look at the bigger picture again after. If its changed, ask yourself why? Don't just march on. Save that that for Light Brigade.

It's not that you're unintelligent, you just need to to pay more close attention to what people are saying and not what you want them to be saying so that you can argue with them. Reading comprehension is the key.

edit: I don't want to come across as harsh, because I understand English may not be your first language and I'm sure you speak it far better than I would speak your language.

Ftr I do talk a lot of **** as well. I wasn't entirely serious about Asia being a **** place, it's just banter. Except Pakistan. You couldn't pay enough to go there.

 

[Borges]

The live score, in this debate: Mr Miyagi 2 - TheJediBrah 0.
Don't think any amount of scrambling by TheJediBrah now is going to improve the position of the losing side.

 

[JBMAC]

Gary Cosier

 

[TheJediBrah]

The live score, in this debate: Mr Miyagi 2 - TheJediBrah 0.
Don't think any amount of scrambling by TheJediBrah now is going to improve the position of the losing side.

You're going to have to explain this one to me m8

What was I supposed to be debating about?

 

[Borges]

You're going to have to explain this one to me m8

Reading comprehension is the key.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Reading comprehension is the key.

This is what happens when you let personal grudges affect your state of mind. Just because I've embarrassed you before doesn't mean you should automatically take the opposite side when all it's going to lead to is you embarrassing yourself again.

 

[cnerd123]

That reminds me - Jesse Ryder

Ahh yes, and All-Rounder in more ways than one

 

[Borges]

Just because I've embarrassed you before doesn't mean you should automatically take the opposite side when all it's going to lead to is you embarrassing yourself again.

Right. You have embarrassed me yet again; and I'm red in the face now. What else is new?