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Cricket stuff that doesn't deserve its own thread

S.Kennedy

International Vice-Captain
That's probably true but I think that speaks to a broader problem with Wisden. There seems to be an assumption that in its views it speaks for world cricket when it really speaks from an English cricketing perspective.
It rather wears that on its sleeve though. If it was trying to mask its English perspective it would have dispensed with the ''based on performances in England'' requisite for the Five cricketers of the year list, and it wouldn't devote so many pages to county cricket in comparison with its coverage of the Sheffield Shield, Ranji Trophy, IPL, etc. You would probably not see so many county performers getting cricketer of the year also. It is what it is. It doesn't exactly hide the fact that it is written with English readers in mind.
 

Borges

International Regular
it wouldn't devote so many pages to county cricket in comparison with its coverage of the Sheffield Shield, Ranji Trophy, IPL, etc. You would probably not see so many county performers getting cricketer of the year also. It is what it is. It doesn't exactly hide the fact that it is written with English readers in mind.
So, why all this obsession with this country cricket crap? A whole lot of obscure Englishmen playing in obscure locations, at home.

Don't these guys realise that away performance is what really matters? Take the whole circus to Bangladesh (away), and there just may be something worth talking about.
 

S.Kennedy

International Vice-Captain
So, why all this obsession with this country cricket crap? A whole lot of obscure Englishmen playing in obscure locations, at home.

Don't these guys realise that away performance is what really matters? Take the whole circus to Bangladesh (away), and there just may be something worth talking about.
And a few of your countrymen also, Pujara, Ishant Sharma, Axar Patel, Varun Aaron, (rumoured) Virat Kohli.
 

Victor Ian

International Coach
So, why all this obsession with this country cricket crap? A whole lot of obscure Englishmen playing in obscure locations, at home.

Don't these guys realise that away performance is what really matters? Take the whole circus to Bangladesh (away), and there just may be something worth talking about.
In county cricket, and most all first class cricket, those obscure matches are 'away'. Home advantage is perhaps greater as it is all on one ground. If you took the circus to Bangladesh each team would still have home and away once they delegated grounds to teams. I think first class cricket is a much bigger deal for the English than elsewhere because it was historically the top level of cricket before tests were created.

Oh hang on... You were just trolling ?
 

Adders

Cricketer Of The Year
So I just checked the FTP and it dawned on me that England play the Ashes right after the WC next year.......wasn't that the very premise for the **** around with the back to back Ashes series in 2013?

Also noted with interest that we're back in NZ in 2019 for 2 tests.......as great as that is, two tours there inside 18 months?
 

harsh.ag

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
How wouldn't they work? Hadlee and Holding both had short runs they utilised to great success, and Thomson at his fastest ran only 14 paces, the same as Larwood. Nobody ever needed to run 22 or 24 paces like in the seventies and eighties, you don't need a full sprint for bowling. It was simply people copying other people. After Fred Trueman there was an explosion of bowlers in England with sharply curved runs in the late sixties, and after Wes Hall came around suddenly everyone was running in miles.
I wasn't referring to the elite bowlers like Davidson and Trueman (who as I mentioned would probably be good across eras), but the average ones. A lot of bowlers back then were medium pace swing bowlers off short run-ups who we wouldn't see in international cricket since 80s onwards (and not because of selection bias).

I'm not sure about that. Maybe there was more of a focus on pace and taller, faster bowlers became more and more common at the expense of slower, movement focussed bowlers. I've never seen a modern bowler who could swing the ball like Trueman except maybe for Anderson. At his best he made Steyn's outswinger look tiny. I think swing and cut bowling underwent a big decline as use of the bouncer increased. I don't see any evidence for batting becoming more skillful, if anything the helmet led to an eventual decline in skill.
One of the things the modern era has also shown that tiny swing > big swing when it comes to getting edges and wickets. Pace and bounce are really important and we've already seen many batsmen say how uncomfortable someone like Morne Morkel made them. Batting becoming more skillful, again, on average imo. You look at top order batsmen from even the Davidson era and those shots look amateurish to say the least. It might simultaneously be true that there has been an average decline in skill related to playing short balls because of helmets.
 

S.Kennedy

International Vice-Captain
I'm rather bored with the Ashes which hasn't been competitive since 2009, except for a couple of odd tests here and there (e.g., Trent Bridge 2013). I welcome more New Zealand tests. 2015 England and the Black Caps had a superb little series which should have went into a third test decider but the cheats with the green baggys were arriving and everything stops for the Ashes. We have just had a decent series in 2018. England/Kiwi tests tend to be played in a good sportsmanlike way and most of the Kiwis play county cricket so it is like we know them.
 

Starfighter

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I wasn't referring to the elite bowlers like Davidson and Trueman (who as I mentioned would probably be good across eras), but the average ones. A lot of bowlers back then were medium pace swing bowlers off short run-ups who we wouldn't see in international cricket since 80s onwards (and not because of selection bias).
You can take it for what it's worth, but I was looking for Fred Trueman articles when I encountered some guy's blog (who usually opined on political matters) talking about pace bowling over the the years, and the conviction that bowlers have gotten faster. He noted that Steven Finn was considered one of the fastest going around the county circuit (this was in 2012) and named sixteen bowlers from the mid-late sixties county circuit who he thought from having watched them were at least as fast as Finn near his best. It's just one guys' word but since true medium pace (Shackleton, Cartwright) died out (thanks to the predominance of wicket covering) I think the improvement has been incremental at best, although I think some other countries took a longer time to catch up. And even then bowlers will tend to suit their environment, hence why ours are generally quicker than England's'.

One of the things the modern era has also shown that tiny swing > big swing when it comes to getting edges and wickets. Pace and bounce are really important and we've already seen many batsmen say how uncomfortable someone like Morne Morkel made them. Batting becoming more skillful, again, on average imo. You look at top order batsmen from even the Davidson era and those shots look amateurish to say the least. It might simultaneously be true that there has been an average decline in skill related to playing short balls because of helmets.
Trueman didn't just swing the ball miles at times but he bowled smaller out swingers, a great off cutter and could swing it back in too, although not always consistently. In any case the principle that the ball should only move 'just enough' has been around for a very long time, so there's nothing new there at all. Here's Charles Kortright in 1948, talking about players who played before WWI:

Richardson's long easy run, fine action, accuracy and speed, coupled with a little break-back from the off, made him a bowler to be feared; and another man I greatly admired was Walter Brearley, who took a much shorter run, but achieved real pace through a splendid body action. Such men as these could take seven or eight wickets in an innings on plumb pitches, nearly all clean bowled, because they bowled a length, bowled with their heads, and bowled at the stumps. What is the use of swerves if you beat the batsman, beat the wicket-keeper, and everybody else? Bowlers like Richardson used to move the ball just that vital inch or two off the pitch, and they hit the stumps.
Swing bowling also has a mental edge to it. with some batsmen tending to follow the ball and the line being much more deceptive. In Truman's case here he is pitching the ball very far up to get Hunte to chase it to slip, which he does after first getting a four, and then the next ball to the new batsmen is much straighter and with less movement to try gain the edge more conventionally. You can have those sort of mind games when the ball moves a lot, especially if the bowler varies the movement. You can if it moves less too, but it's more attritional.

I don't see anything amateurish about the Davidson era batting. A lot of modern Australian batsmen have a hands well in front of the body position that Don Bradman pictures as an example of what not to do. The fact that the Kookaburra doesn't swing much and that batsmen can now get forward all the time without fear of being hit has actually worsened techniques. Sure the modern era has plenty of wonderfully dextrous shots, but basic defence had been weakened to the point that teams will simply disintegrate when faced with the moving ball. I remember Charles Davis noting that no.6 batsmen average far less in collapse situations than they used to. You have guys like Nic Maddinson being chosen for their supposed attacking qualities, whereas you might have had someone defensive like Trevor Bailey come in at six in earlier times, who could arrest a collapse. The importance of pace and bounce is also so-so. Morkel may have made the batsmen uncomfortable but it's been Steyn, shorter and skiddy, and Philander, even shorter and gentle of pace by international standards, who have been getting the wickets. Tall, back of a length bowling is best on fairly bouncy roads (and no swing) i.e. Australia, where batsmen can freely push through the ball. On a soft English greentop you have to pitch the ball further up and play with softer hands much closer to the body. Bowled has declined as a dismissal because you can't force batsmen back as easily anymore. Wickets don't deteriorate as much so certain batting and bowling skills have been lost. Don't even get me started on wet or sticky pitches. Batting today is different, but while there are now more shots than ever I don't think there has been much improvement on the basics (defence), and maybe even a worsening in some places.

Edit: Um, am I turning into the new Richard? I hope not.
 
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Daemon

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Played on a wet turf wicket yesterday. Lots of newfound respect for those who played on them back in the day. Just ridiculously hard to bat on, especially against the quicks.
 

srbhkshk

International Captain
Played on a wet turf wicket yesterday. Lots of newfound respect for those who played on them back in the day. Just ridiculously hard to bat on, especially against the quicks.
Heh, I played on one of those once and for the first (and only) time in my life, actually got the ball to swing. The other team got bowled out for 11, managed to hit 2 jammy fours as well. Greatest day ever.
 

Burgey

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Played on a wet turf wicket yesterday. Lots of newfound respect for those who played on them back in the day. Just ridiculously hard to bat on, especially against the quicks.
It's good fun isn't it? Just have to play as late as you can and with crazily soft hands.
 

Daemon

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It's good fun isn't it? Just have to play as late as you can and with crazily soft hands.
It's ****ed. You get grubbers, shooters, quicks bowling massive legbreaks, bouncers that just slow down after pitching.

I mean it was fun and a nice challenge but it quickly became apparent that dealing with this with any sort of regularity would definitely suck.
 

Burgey

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You wouldn't want to do it regularly, that's for sure.

I guess I have a bit of fondness for it because I think the best knock I ever played was on a track like that in a final years ago. We were 7/27 at one stage and I made 40 odd opening to help get us to 160 or so. Was a complete brothel of a wicket, no helmet. Still got the scar under my jaw where the opening bowler hit me and gave me a few stitches. Just reared at me off a fullish length. Had no choice but to drop the gloves and wear it.

I love stuff like that. It tests how badly you want to succeed. The element of physical threat makes it more of a challenge too. That's why facing and succeeding against fast bowling will always be inherently superior and more masculine than facing a spinner on a dustbowl and getting out because you're dehydrated after making a double ton.
 

Daemon

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You wouldn't want to do it regularly, that's for sure.

I guess I have a bit of fondness for it because I think the best knock I ever played was on a track like that in a final years ago. We were 7/27 at one stage and I made 40 odd opening to help get us to 160 or so. Was a complete brothel of a wicket, no helmet. Still got the scar under my jaw where the opening bowler hit me and gave me a few stitches. Just reared at me off a fullish length. Had no choice but to drop the gloves and wear it.

I love stuff like that. It tests how badly you want to succeed. The element of physical threat makes it more of a challenge too. That's why facing and succeeding against fast bowling will always be inherently superior and more masculine than facing a spinner on a dustbowl and getting out because you're dehydrated after making a double ton.
Yeah tbf I like playing in tough conditions as well. It brings all the other good batsman down to my level and lets me play my natural game, which is best described as survival. Get a nice applause from the guys when I walk back after a gritty 22 (43) out of a team total of 90.
 

TheJediBrah

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You wouldn't want to do it regularly, that's for sure.

I guess I have a bit of fondness for it because I think the best knock I ever played was on a track like that in a final years ago. We were 7/27 at one stage and I made 40 odd opening to help get us to 160 or so. Was a complete brothel of a wicket, no helmet. Still got the scar under my jaw where the opening bowler hit me and gave me a few stitches. Just reared at me off a fullish length. Had no choice but to drop the gloves and wear it.

I love stuff like that. It tests how badly you want to succeed. The element of physical threat makes it more of a challenge too. That's why facing and succeeding against fast bowling will always be inherently superior and more masculine than facing a spinner on a dustbowl and getting out because you're dehydrated after making a double ton.
More so it tests how lucky you are because that's mostly what it comes down to
 

cnerd123

likes this
Batting always has a huge slice of luck attached to it. Too many times have I seen one batsman make a single error and be dismissed for a duck, while another one has edges fly past the fielders and stumps, gets a lucky LBW decision go his way, and then gets dropped a couple of times to boot on his way to a 50.

It's even worse if all you do for your team is bat - get a corker of a ball or a bad decision and your contribution for the whole day is done. All you can do now is hope you get the chance to pull off a crazy catch or a runout in the field, because otherwise you're contributing nothing else for the rest of the game.

I've started taking my batting more seriously lately, and get to bat up the order some more now, and man it's a cruel life as a batsman. IDK how you all can do it. Being a bowler is so much better - make one mistake and you've got the rest of the over to compensate for it, if not the rest of your spell.
 

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