Baggy Green ball tampering: Bancroft, Smith and the Aussie "Leadership Group"

[social]

There's a clause in their contracts pertaining to bringing the game into disrepute

I'm no lawyer but I'd hazard a guess as to CA saying:

a. for the ball tampering, you get the ICC penalty; and

b. for bringing the game into disrepute, cop this

Quite how Warner fits into this when he hasnt been charged by the ICC is anyone's guess

 

[harsh.ag]

Warner could be dropped for a while for going "above the captain", so to speak. But I don't think that should be part of the official punishment.

 

[social]

In any event, I assume that CA are well within their rights simply not to pick them for however long so players probably havent got a leg to stand on whichever way it goes

 

[cnerd123]

Just like what the ICC hit Rabada with was iron clad. I would be staggered if there wasn't some sort of internal appeals process, and I doubt that CA could legally deny some external ones either. And it would be very easy to argue that lengthy suspension isn't appropriate.

I feel like some of you just want to see him banned without respect to the offence.

The ICC's is a lot less ironclad because, to my understanding, no cricketers have a legally binding contract with the ICC.

They have a contract with Cricket Australia, who has some sort of arrangement with the ICC. So there is more wiggle room there, more space to claim that the cricketer is being hard done.

There probably is some sort of internal appeals process, but it would be pretty incompetent of CA to
A) Not have some legally binding way to punish cricketers under contract and
B) To go beyond what they legally can do, thus invoking an outside party coming in and getting their decision revoked.

But we'll see.

 

[howardj]

There was a great article on Cricinfo in the last few days setting out the process

If there is a Code of Conduct breach, the players are entitled to a hearing before an independent commissioner (which would be someone like a retired judge or a QC). At the hearing they are entitled to be represented.

Of course, there's always the option of waiving their right to a hearing and just accept any sanction that CA deems appropriate.

I suspect what will happen tomorrow is that they will announce that Warner/Smith/Bancroft have accepted a ban of XXXXXX months

Or (if the players have indicated that they want a hearing) that CA will be seeking to impose a ban of XXXXXX months which will be determined at a Code of Conduct hearing

 

[morgieb]

Lehmann getting off seems kinda dodgy. Even if you were to accept he wasn't part of the plan, surely the fact that he let the state of the dressing room get to this level is a mark against him? Especially given one of the most important roles of coaching is setting the team culture?

So either:

1. They will dismiss him but as he isn't conclusively part of the scandal he won't be dismissed yet. Too hard to find a replacement, perhaps because there's only two days and the backroom team will also get fired. He will however get sacked in the off-season. Furthermore as there hasn't been that much time to completely investigate the issue the current suspensions isn't the end of it yet.
2. It's a cover-up. Warner and Smith have been scapegoated, but more of the team was involved than first thought. Now the anger and denials of the bowlers being listed as "part of the plan" makes me think this is less likely, but I can see why image wise it could turn into a real hell basket if Lehmann got fired too. While Warner and Smith may have aspirations of returning to the team eventually (more so Smith) and can easily shut up in an attempt for an eventual comeback, Lehmann if he got fired would have his career over. There's nothing stopping him from completely spilling the beans and implicating far more players than first thought. 3 cricketers going rouge? Manageable. A whole team conspiracy? Enough to ruin the reputation of the team forever. So in order to stop the team from turning into an Australia A team and potentially causing the death of Australian Test cricket, Lehmann's kept on board so he won't leak the whole story.

Now I'd like to believe that 1 is true. And it's possible neither is really on the money and they have no intentions of sacking him (disappointing because IMO he is a key reason for many of Australia's recent controversies). But if 2 is true, then it would ruin the reputation of the team and the sport permanently. CA can't have that, so they'll do the minimum to appease parts of the bloodlust and try to sell a narrative. Whether it'll work is another question.

 

[Spark]

Lehmann going is not quite a non-negotiable for me but it's not far off.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Lehmann should be fired not as a punishment because he was potentially involved in ball-tampering, but because he's clearly not competent in his position that this happened (not to mention the rest of the whinging **** on this tour) with him as coach.

 

[Spark]

Lehmann should be fired not as a punishment because he was potentially involved in ball-tampering, but because he's clearly not competent in his position that this happened (not to mention the rest of the whinging **** on this tour) with him as coach.

We've long since moved from the space where the punishments are about the isolated facts of the incident, which to be completely honest are probably at worst a small handful of games, and onto greater Crimes Against Australian Cricket. In that case, Lehmann is by far the most culpable.

 

[howardj]

Lehmann, Howard, and Gavin Dovey should all be in the gun

Team culture so bad that CA are launching an inquiry into it

Yet the three guys who along with the players set the team culture are all still employed

 

[S.Kennedy]

Anyone else a member of the Cricket Australi familly (yeah yuck i know but priority access on Ashes tickets) and getting emails from Sutherland?

Ive had 3 so far apologising for this debacle.......Lehmanns name wasnt even mentioned in the one recieved this morning following the press release. If his head doesnt roll for the state of this Aussie side atm it will be a disgrace.

Sutherland's interview was full of this sort of stuff.

It is funny how they can still be nauseatingly nationalistic, even amidst their biggest scandal.

 

[Zinzan]

Lehmann, Howard, and Gavin Dovey should all be in the gun

Team culture so bad that CA are launching an inquiry into it

Yet the three guys who along with the players set the team culture are all still employed

To be fair, and it is a genuine question. What was the last Australia cricket team to actually really play within the spirit of the game? And I don't mean not playing hard, but I mean free of thuggish,. disrespectful & unsavory attitudes towards their opposition? Or by 'culture' were you just meaning how they act towards one another?

 

[S.Kennedy]

The more and more I read into it I get the feeling that Lehmann is the polar opposite of a Mickey Arthur or a Greg Chappell. A very matey, democratic and liberal who gave his players (leadership group) too much trust and leeway and thus had little authority over the group or control over their conduct. Which eventually led to formation of cliques and groups and led to this embarrassing episode.

So we have two breakdowns in 5 years within the Aussie team but in diametrically opposite conditions. The former was apparently the outcome of a regimental coaching attitude and the latter due to a laissez faire mode of coaching. Interesting case studies really but also throws up apprehensions about the mental make-up of Aussie cricketers from the junior levels. Both cases reflect the mental make-up of egotisic man cubs with little regard for the manner their illustrated predecessors approached the game.

Sad really and warrants a thorough look at the mentoring done at junior levels.

If Lehmann and Arthur had ***, they'd produce the perfect Australian cricket coach!

 

[Starfighter]

Anyone else a member of the Cricket Australia familly (yeah yuck i know but priority access on Ashes tickets) and getting emails from Sutherland?

Ive had 3 so far apologising for this debacle.......Lehmanns name wasnt even mentioned in the one recieved this morning following the press release. If his head doesnt roll for the state of this Aussie side atm it will be a disgrace.

*checks emails, having not done so since Wednesday*

Yep getting said emails. Not reading them though.

 

[morgieb]

To be fair, and it is a genuine question. What was the last Australia cricket team to actually really play with a within the spirit of the game? And I don't mean not playing hard, but I mean free of thuggish,. disrespectful & unsavory attitudes towards their opposition? Or by 'culture' were you just meaning how they act towards one another?

Taylor's team from my understanding was mostly OK in this regard. And while there was quite a few significant incidents between Waugh's retirement and Lehmann's appointment as coach, it wasn't quite wall to wall full of on-field controversies either.

Depending on how you define it though, few teams are truly free of disrespectful attitudes towards the opposition.

 

[Adders]

To be fair, and it is a genuine question. What was the last Australia cricket team to actually really play with a within the spirit of the game? And I don't mean not playing hard, but I mean free of thuggish,. disrespectful & unsavory attitudes towards their opposition?

I think during the start to mid Ponting era.....pre the McWarne and rest retirements.

It's funny because I often hear people say "tall poppy syndrome" and "your just jealous of our success" as a response to any criticism to the Aussies, but I honestly always liked and admired their great side.

 

[Spark]

Taylor's team from my understanding was mostly OK in this regard. And while there was quite a few significant incidents between Waugh's retirement and Lehmann's appointment as coach, it wasn't quite wall to wall full of on-field controversies either.

Depending on how you define it though, few teams are truly free of disrespectful attitudes towards the opposition.

Yeah, as I said near the start of this thread, the Australian team definitely wasn't notably good on this front. It just wasn't notably bad (IMO) either, at least not to this degree.

 

[Zinzan]

I think during the start to mid Ponting era.....pre the McWarne and rest retirements.

It's funny because I often hear people say "tall poppy syndrome" and "your just jealous of our success" as a response to any criticism to the Aussies, but I honestly always liked and admired their great side.

Yeah, I remember Steve Waugh's side touring New Zealand in 2000, and that was as strong an Aussie side as I can recall. And if IIRC, they were very respectful throughout. I vividly recall Warne clapping Cairns' 50s and 100 in that series, in spite of being smacked over the boundary a few times. But that might just be selective memory on my part.

 

[Zinzan]

Taylor's team from my understanding was mostly OK in this regard. And while there was quite a few significant incidents between Waugh's retirement and Lehmann's appointment as coach, it wasn't quite wall to wall full of on-field controversies either.

Depending on how you define it though, few teams are truly free of disrespectful attitudes towards the opposition.

I honestly think the respect between England and New Zealand when they've played in the last 3-4 years whether in white-ball or test cricket as a close to good as you can expect in this respect. It doesn't mean there's never any words or aggressive body language between batter and bowler, but overall the level of respect these 2 teams display towards one another is outstanding.

 

[Spark]

I mean, they were definitely unpleasant to play against. But they weren't unpleasant to watch, which I guess is the distinction a lot of people make. I think this series is out of the ordinary though.