OverratedSanity
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Even though the favourites won in 2011 and 2015, it's not as though they were dead certs like Australia of the 2000s.
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***Official*** England in New Zealand 2018
- Thread starter BeeGee
- Start date
Zinzan
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True, I've watched Ryder in various T20 comps like the CPL in recent years, and he's quite clearly nowhere near the batsman he was circa 2008-2013.
I thought New Zealand definitely had the stronger top order. The difference was the English lower middle order contributed vital runs when they required, even if less than they sometimes do. Also the English bowling attack was more adept at building 5 or 6 overs of scoreboard pressure. The 4 most economical bowlers were all English and more than anything else I felt that was why England won.
Zinzan
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How do you figure that?
Roy/Hales > Munro
Bairtow >/= Guptill
Root>> Williamson
Taylor> Morgan
Mike5181
International Captain
Bit of an anticlimactic end to it but that was genuinely one of the more enjoyable ODI series I can remember. Some positives in there with Taylor's performance, Sodhi sans today's game was good, Santner's looking a lot more comfortable with bat in hand, and Williamson's century was memorable despite the loss. This is probably the strongest (and most fun to watch) England ODI team we've seen here, so it's hard to be too down about it. A lot of things were irritating though. Our fielding has been abysmal and we have a few passengers in the side that consistently fail to step up.
Colin Munro: 56 runs @ 11.
Henry Nicholls: 69 runs @ 17
Tim Southee: 2 wickets @ 128
Mark Chapman: 9 runs @ 3
Mitchell Santner's bowling has been economical, but I think 3 wickets @ 62 is an issue regardless.
Collin de Grandhomme: 72 runs @ 11. bowled all right in the first three games, particularly in Wellington, but 1 wicket @ 111 isn't giving us much in that 5th block with Munro either.
Martin Guptill: 113 runs @ 23. Gets a pass because he's usually pretty great.
I think bringing in George Worker and Matt Henry would immediately improve the side, or at least make it a more consistent one.
I kind of thought this was Munro's time and he'd actually step up and transfer that domestic/T20I form into the real stuff - but he's been a bit of a liability so far. I wouldn't discard him entirely, he's the no. 1 T20I batsman in the world (or was at one point), there is something to work with there. But Worker hasn't done much wrong and deserves a chance. Henry in for Southee is an obvious one. Dude took 2 wickets in a 5 match series and has been **** for years. His last sub-30 average year was 2011 or something iirc.
Nicholls is lucky in that there's not many middle-order batsmen in domestic OD cricket that are knocking on the selector's door. Phillips is a top order bat and wasn't dominating OD stuff, Bruce is an option but didn't look convincing, Seifert has a **** OD record and is a top-order bat. No one else is really there that I can think of. I'd give Chapman one more series as a reserve at least.
Colin Munro: 56 runs @ 11.
Henry Nicholls: 69 runs @ 17
Tim Southee: 2 wickets @ 128
Mark Chapman: 9 runs @ 3
Mitchell Santner's bowling has been economical, but I think 3 wickets @ 62 is an issue regardless.
Collin de Grandhomme: 72 runs @ 11. bowled all right in the first three games, particularly in Wellington, but 1 wicket @ 111 isn't giving us much in that 5th block with Munro either.
Martin Guptill: 113 runs @ 23. Gets a pass because he's usually pretty great.
I think bringing in George Worker and Matt Henry would immediately improve the side, or at least make it a more consistent one.
I kind of thought this was Munro's time and he'd actually step up and transfer that domestic/T20I form into the real stuff - but he's been a bit of a liability so far. I wouldn't discard him entirely, he's the no. 1 T20I batsman in the world (or was at one point), there is something to work with there. But Worker hasn't done much wrong and deserves a chance. Henry in for Southee is an obvious one. Dude took 2 wickets in a 5 match series and has been **** for years. His last sub-30 average year was 2011 or something iirc.
Nicholls is lucky in that there's not many middle-order batsmen in domestic OD cricket that are knocking on the selector's door. Phillips is a top order bat and wasn't dominating OD stuff, Bruce is an option but didn't look convincing, Seifert has a **** OD record and is a top-order bat. No one else is really there that I can think of. I'd give Chapman one more series as a reserve at least.
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Flem274*
123/5
Congratulations England, they played excellent cricket and in the end the bowling that was seen as a weakness has played a vital role. It will be great to see what they can do in a home world cup next year. Winning ODI series against the two previous finalists in their backyards must be a good buzz.
As usual the opinions of the NZ team are oscillating wildly based on the past 5 minutes. It isn't panic stations yet, just a reminder of how this team has quietly declined since 2015. Boult, Guptill, Kane, Taylor and Santner carry NZ. There have been promising signs from others but overall the 2015 vintage would smash this lot.
When the players above are absent or in poor form NZ get belted by good teams like England. The 4-1 vs 3-2 talk is usual CW nationalistic/wrist slitting hair splitting since all teams are terrible if you remove performances from their best players. England won because the entire team came to the party.
Apart from Southee and the third seamer option this is our best squad. Worker is not better than Munro, and the domestic find Chapman has looked a hack all summer. I guess if you were brave you could solve the fifth bowler option by dropping CdG and elevating Santner to #6 but we've tried that before with poor results.
As usual the opinions of the NZ team are oscillating wildly based on the past 5 minutes. It isn't panic stations yet, just a reminder of how this team has quietly declined since 2015. Boult, Guptill, Kane, Taylor and Santner carry NZ. There have been promising signs from others but overall the 2015 vintage would smash this lot.
When the players above are absent or in poor form NZ get belted by good teams like England. The 4-1 vs 3-2 talk is usual CW nationalistic/wrist slitting hair splitting since all teams are terrible if you remove performances from their best players. England won because the entire team came to the party.
Apart from Southee and the third seamer option this is our best squad. Worker is not better than Munro, and the domestic find Chapman has looked a hack all summer. I guess if you were brave you could solve the fifth bowler option by dropping CdG and elevating Santner to #6 but we've tried that before with poor results.
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TheJediBrah
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Wasn't really a clear favourite in '99 I think. Aus would have been as fancied as anyone, but not far and away favourites.
No such thing as dead certs in World Cups. Anyone can lose on a given day and when you've got 2 or 3 knockout games anything can happen.
The Hutt Rec
International Vice-Captain
He's got one 50 in his last 11 domestic innings, his form in no way warrants a spot in the side.
Personal view is at the moment I'd take Williamson over Root. Taylor is a big player in this format and I'd also put Guptill in my top order. I'd go with Bairstow over Munro. Hales and Roy tend to be a bit hit and miss. Root a bit unlucky but very similar player to Williamson and you only really want one or the other.
wpdavid
Hall of Fame Member
Quite right about 1999. Don't forget that Australia hadn't won it since 1987, so retrospectively making them strong favourites in what turned out to be the start of their winning streak doesn't work. SA were equally fancied, but, before the tournament, it would have been seen as a very open field.
marc71178
Eyes not spreadsheets
Should be pointed out that the 2 games NZ won, Morgan inexplicably bowled someone else over him at the death meaning he wasn't given a full quota of overs.
Not saying it would've definitely made a difference but the first was a definite WTF moment and the Rashid over brought NZ right back into a game that really should've been beyond them.
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Absolutely right. They bowl Woakes in Hamilton, they probably win the series 4-1. And that's how the series felt, like we were dominated - even though if Santner hadn't been run out at the bowlers end in Wellington, we might've won 3-2. Sport, eh? England were the far better prepared and performed side, so congrats to them - they are tracking in the right direction for 2019. We, are not so much. I know it's such a doom and gloom thing NZ fans do but we have regressed since the World Cup. Look at the stats for this series:
Guptill, 113 runs at 22.6 at a strike rate of 57. FIFTY SEVEN. Totally dominated by Woakes. His innings' at the Mount and today weren't good enough. Flat as hell decks and he went completely into his shell when we lost 1-2 wickets early. That's poor. Nicholls 17 avg, CdG 14, Munro 11, Chapman 3. Woeful.
Southee, 2 wickets at 128 with 6.11 RPO. TWO WICKETS. Should be dropped. His batting is **** too. Henry should take his spot but for some bizarre reason Southee is undroppable and seemingly knows it. Sodhi expensive but a wicket taker. Needs to play every ODI. Boult a bit out of sorts too.
flibbertyjibber
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Good win for Yorkshire
Groundking
International Debutant
Why Root Averages better at a better click, and significantly better over the past 3 years.
flibbertyjibber
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Will admit I seen about 15 overs of this series. Desperate for tests to start though. Always seem well matched when we in NZ. Tough games and good cricket.
Interesting one this. I think Root has the tools to be better than KW in ODIs and on raw numbers he is ahead however Root has scored quite a few pressure free tons and hasn't shown great ability finishing a game which KW has. Think it is a genuine discussion - i'll start a thread about it.
vcs
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Even Australia who were far more consistent and dominant in the '00s than England are right now, suffered a few upsets in Champions Trophies. Took their time to eventually win one. That's how it goes in knockout tournaments in limited overs.