***Official*** England in New Zealand 2018

[veganbob]

The top 3 nz odi innings for me.

1: Martin Guptill 238 world cup Quarter Final 2015

2: Chris Cairns 102 vs India champions trophy final 2000

3: Ross Taylor 181 vs England 2018

Ross's is only 3rd because it wasn't a world cup knockout game or chamoions trophy final like the first 2.

Aside from world cups, its honestly the best one day innings I can remember from any player, any country, ever.
Its just that odi world cups and normal odis have a different level of intensity so I can't rank it above the first 2 in NZ all time innings.

 

[Athlai]

Pretty close if you do a combined test/odi best batsman. Ive never liked that way though, each format should be treated separately, no such thing as best overall for me.

Also that stat might be a bit unfair on kane given that he was pretty average at the start of his career and Ross was settled by 2010.

What about 2013-2018?

Since 2013 Tests (10+ innings)

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo


Williamson 58.69
Taylor 54.14
McCullum 45.28
Raval 44.50
Watling 39.69
Latham 38.25

Since 2013 ODIs (10+ innings)

Batting records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

Taylor 57.69 (SR 83.41)
Williamson 51.41 (SR 85.15)
Guptill 46.64 (SR 90.33)
CDG 38.55 (SR 112.29)
Broom 38.12 (SR 88.92)
Latham 35.46 (SR 83.34)


And bowling while I'm here

Since 2013 Tests (min 20 wickets)

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

CDG 26.10 (SR 60.8)
Wagner 27.17 (SR 50.6)
Boult 28.47 (SR 58.0
Southee 29.82 (SR 61.4)
Williamson 33.57 (SR 63.9)
Santner 37.05 (SR 79.4)

Since 2013 ODIs (min 100 overs)

Bowling records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

Boult 23.69 (econ 5.09)
Henry 24.59 (econ 5.57)
Anderson 25.03 (econ 6.06)
McClenenenen 28.20 (econ 5.94)
Williamson 32.93 (econ 5.45)
Mills 33 (econ 4.84)

 

[Athlai]

Team of 2013-2018 Tests

McCullum
Raval
Williamson
Taylor
Latham
Watling
CDG
Santner
Wagner
Southee
Boult

Team of 2013-2018 ODIs

Guptill
Latham
Williamson
Taylor
Broom
CDG
Anderson
Mills
Henry
McClenenen
Boult

(though tbf Santner was next on the list and his economy actually really warrants him a spot, but this team is funnier)

 

[NZTailender]

I've always felt Taylor is a bit of a Brian Lara, while Kane is more Tendulkar like

 

[SteveNZ]

Since 2013 ODIs (min 100 overs)

Bowling records | One-Day Internationals | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo

Boult 23.69 (econ 5.09)
Henry 24.59 (econ 5.57)
Anderson 25.03 (econ 6.06)
McClenenenen 28.20 (econ 5.94)
Williamson 32.93 (econ 5.45)
Mills 33 (econ 4.84)

Southee's record is crap. One five-for and one four-for (for 72, no less) since 2013, and he's easily played the most matches. He basically has the same record as Jimmy Neesham (apart from economy rate) yet bowls with the new ball and at the death.

 

[SteveNZ]

I heard another amazing stat on the radio today, that Kane is the worst captain in Tests with 3 of 33 correct reviews. What's that, 9 percent? Root was best on 32 percent. Can't imagine he'd be much better in ODIs. Our use of the technology is hideous. Boult's LBW yesterday was never out, and how Manu and Gup got round to the fact that reviewing Manu's lbw was worthwhile is absolutely beyond me. Can only think it's too hard to tell your good mate he's out.

 

[Athlai]

I heard another amazing stat on the radio today, that Kane is the worst captain in Tests with 3 of 33 correct reviews. What's that, 9 percent? Root was best on 32 percent. Can't imagine he'd be much better in ODIs. Our use of the technology is hideous. Boult's LBW yesterday was never out, and how Manu and Gup got round to the fact that reviewing Manu's lbw was worthwhile is absolutely beyond me. Can only think it's too hard to tell your good mate he's out.

Wouldn't that statistic only be useful if you also had the figures of how many decisions that could have been overturned that weren't?

 

[Bahnz]

I heard another amazing stat on the radio today, that Kane is the worst captain in Tests with 3 of 33 correct reviews. What's that, 9 percent? Root was best on 32 percent. Can't imagine he'd be much better in ODIs. Our use of the technology is hideous. Boult's LBW yesterday was never out, and how Manu and Gup got round to the fact that reviewing Manu's lbw was worthwhile is absolutely beyond me. Can only think it's too hard to tell your good mate he's out.

There was some suggestion that Guptill was standing quite wide of the crease, and as such his viewing angle may have fooled him into thinking it pitched outside leg.

 

[Howsie]

Yeah, I'm in the Taylor camp as far as our best bat is concerned. I just feel like he's more adaptable, can absolutely put fear into batsman, can consolidate and knock it around, bat time in all forms etc. Kane might have the odd blitzkrieg moment ala England at the Cake Tin last month but he hasn't got 181 not in him to win a game. And Rossco's got him in consistently lately as well, I'd say his deviation in scores since his eye surgery would be much less than Kane's.

Until yesterday neither had Ross Taylor....

 

[Zinzan]

Re: Williamson's ton that didn't quite get us over the line in match 3, I honestly think the others of the Fab 4 would have all got their side up in that last over, hence why I said KW can set-up games in ODI, whereas Taylor can set them up and win them.

Watching that live, I was positive KW wouldn't get us home in that last over.

 

[SteveNZ]

Until yesterday neither had Ross Taylor....

Slight word confusion, that's why I worded it 'doesn't have 181 not out in him'. Ross had it in him, then scored it yesterday. Kane doesn't. It's not a knock on him, he plays an essential role at #3. Just Ross is the better ODI player in my book, he's got more strings to his bow.

 

[SteveNZ]

Wouldn't that statistic only be useful if you also had the figures of how many decisions that could have been overturned that weren't?

It would make it more useful, yeah. But I still believe it paints enough of a picture that we get it horribly wrong. In ODIs, unless you're using it late, using it on borderline lbw shouts just completely flies in the face of all we've seen with DRS. In a lot of decisions, enough for it to guide strategy, something that looks close will stay with the umpire's decision. I know I'm sat on my hairy arse on the couch but I knew the Stokes one, the Munro one and Boult's one were all going to really struggle to be overturned. Especially the Munro one, geezus. I think that one might've actually stopped an even bigger issue if Kane's caught behind had've been reviewed (I could see that one being upheld) but hell, it was just the worst. Shane Watson-esque. Have a strategy, take a breath and review it using the most amount of information and calmness you can muster.

 

[veganbob]

I've always felt Taylor is a bit of a Brian Lara, while Kane is more Tendulkar like

So williamson clearly better in both formats and a big match player like tendulkar.
While lara likely to score big but failed a lot.

Don't agree though cause I think theres daylight between sachin and lara while kane vs taylor is fairly close.

I can't rate taylor ahead of guptill in odis though, simply because aside from one innings he has been awful at world cups (3 world cups is a big sample size).

 

[Adders]

Slight word confusion, that's why I worded it 'doesn't have 181 not out in him'. Ross had it in him, then scored it yesterday. Kane doesn't. It's not a knock on him, he plays an essential role at #3. Just Ross is the better ODI player in my book, he's got more strings to his bow.

I'm not sure that Joe Root has 180no in him either........but I'm dead set certain he is a better ODI bat than Jason Roy who does. Like Williamson he just plays a different role in the side and it's his job to make run a ball hundreds while the others strike a lot higher around him.

I'm not saying that Ross isn't a better ODI bat than Kane, just that the yardstick shouldn't necessarily be the ability to score 180's.

 

[NZTailender]

So williamson clearly better in both formats and a big match player like tendulkar.
While lara likely to score big but failed a lot.

Don't agree though cause I think theres daylight between sachin and lara while kane vs taylor is fairly close.

I can't rate taylor ahead of guptill in odis though, simply because aside from one innings he has been awful at world cups (3 world cups is a big sample size).

That's not what I meant but ok

 

[Burner]

I think Williamson definitely has a 180 in him even if that's the yardstick. He's not even in his peak yet and his power game is a lot different from a couple of years ago. Right now Taylor in ODIs but that's probably going to change in a couple of years.

 

[SteveNZ]

I'm not sure that Joe Root has 180no in him either........but I'm dead set certain he is a better ODI bat than Jason Roy who does. Like Williamson he just plays a different role in the side and it's his job to make run a ball hundreds while the others strike a lot higher around him.

I'm not saying that Ross isn't a better ODI bat than Kane, just that the yardstick shouldn't necessarily be the ability to score 180's.

Yeah it's not the yardstick, it's something that Ross has that Kane doesn't that differentiates them as ODI players. Both can anchor an innings, make hundreds, good technically etc...but Ross is the greater match winner. If he's not out in a chase, slightly more chance you've won than Kane. With a Roy v Root comparison, you don't need such a comparison to be able to score big daddy hundreds because Root has him in too many aspects for it to matter.

The relevance of being able to score 180, or a suitably super-charged score, will show itself in the World Cup if we bat first. We're a great batting first, on good decks team. When we know what we need, we can get there. Setting, we're not great. I'd suggest Kane can get a bit conservative, especially if our openers don't get off to a flier.

 

[wellAlbidarned]

RE latham - he needs to go into the nets and practice lofting the spinners and pacers down the ground. His sweeping game is awesome, he's strong on the pull, but he needs a boundary option when they start firing it in full and fast. Far too predictable how often he goes for the sweep even when mid-on is up.

 

[Bahnz]

The relevance of being able to score 180, or a suitably super-charged score, will show itself in the World Cup if we bat first. We're a great batting first, on good decks team. When we know what we need, we can get there. Setting, we're not great. I'd suggest Kane can get a bit conservative, especially if our openers don't get off to a flier.

I actually think that typically this has been more of a problem for Taylor than for Williamson. It's quite telling that despite Ross's undeniable power, KW actually has a higher career strike rate in ODI's. There've been a lot of times when Taylor has probably caused NZ to undershoot in setting a total by plodding along at 4.5 rpo in the 20-35 over phase. Williamson has generally proven a lot more effective at piercing the gaps and finding the boundary during this accumulation period.

 

[SteveNZ]

I actually think that typically this has been more of a problem for Taylor than for Williamson. It's quite telling that despite Ross's undeniable power, KW actually has a higher career strike rate in ODI's. There've been a lot of times when Taylor has probably caused NZ to undershoot in setting a total by plodding along at 4.5 rpo in the 20-35 over phase. Williamson has generally proven a lot more effective at piercing the gaps and finding the boundary during this accumulation period.

I'd be more interested in the strike rates of the two in the last 24-36 months, what do they look like? Let's say, since the World Cup seeing both were pretty unmemorable there.