The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[stephen]

I'm not sure having 5 premium bowlers is as useful as people seem to think. A 5th bowler usually only gets a dozen overs and usually when the ball is in the worst condition.

 

[stephen]

and Sobers is definitely good enough for that role.

 

[Gowza]

Absolutely consider Marshall the greatest fast bowler but do you need him if you’ve got Procter, imran and hadlee?

 

[Bolo]

I'm not sure having 5 premium bowlers is as useful as people seem to think. A 5th bowler usually only gets a dozen overs and usually when the ball is in the worst condition.

This isn't really what I think of as the main argument for 5 bowlers. I've got no issue with Sobers bowling 5-10 overs when the ball is doing nothing for a handful of runs- the extra bat is worth more than this.

The main arguments for me are:

1. You can pick the frontliners who are bowling best on the day. Bowlers have offdays and spells. You can get around this to some extent by selecting the super consistent players like hadlee and mcgrath, but by doing this you are foregoing the destruction of players like Steyn, who is far better at his best and far worse at his worst.

2. You get a variety of skillsets. You can get around this to some extent by playing someone like Wasim, but this means you are getting only competency (by ATG standards ) at every skillset. Consider ESPN's attack of Wasim, Marshall and Lillee. Possibly thought of as the 3 quicks most accomplished in terms of skillset so theoretically they have it covered. Drop any one of them for two 'lesser' bowlers in Philander and Waqar and your attack takes on a extra gear. In this attack, you mostly only want Philander to be bowling when it is seaming and Waqar when it is reversing, so they are too limited in a 4 man attack, but if you can get them pretty much bowling only to conditions that suit in a 5 man attack, they are freakishly good.

Whether or not these advantages outweigh the extra bat, I don't know.

 

[Bolo]

Absolutely consider Marshall the greatest fast bowler but do you need him if you’ve got Procter, imran and hadlee?

Maybe, maybe not. You are trying to create a balanced side though, and I was trying to create a side of 5 ATG bowlers who can bat. There isn't a replacement for Marshall in this side in my book, because all the other candidates are already playing.

 

[Days of Grace]

All-time New Zealand ODI team

MJ Guptill
BB McCullum+
KS Williamson
MD Crowe*
LRPL Taylor
SB Styris
CL Cairns
Sir RJ Hadlee
DL Vettori
SE Bond
TA Boult

Balance of four batsmen, four bowlers, two allrounders and a wicketkeeper.

Astle, Turner, and Oram were close to being selected.

 

[jimmy101]

Looks good. Astle very unlucky indeed.

 

[Prince EWS]

All-time New Zealand ODI team

MJ Guptill
BB McCullum+
KS Williamson
MD Crowe*
LRPL Taylor
SB Styris
CL Cairns
Sir RJ Hadlee
DL Vettori
SE Bond
TA Boult

Balance of four batsmen, four bowlers, two allrounders and a wicketkeeper.

Astle, Turner, and Oram were close to being selected.

Yeah that'd be my team too. I think at this point nine of those places should be more or less locked in .. you could make a case for including one of the three you mentioned at the end for for Styris and/or Cairns (if it was Turner or Astle I guess McCullum would slide down the order). But that'd be exactly my team.

 

[Days of Grace]

An alltime ODI XI based on my ratings

HM Amla
SR Tendulkar
JH Kallis
V Kohli
IVA Richards*
AB de Villiers
MS Dhoni+
Wasim Akram
MA Starc
B Lee
M Muralitharan

 

[Bolo]

An alltime ODI XI based on my ratings

HM Amla
SR Tendulkar
JH Kallis
V Kohli
IVA Richards*
AB de Villiers
MS Dhoni+
Wasim Akram
MA Starc
B Lee
M Muralitharan

I assume Kallis makes it in on an all-round ranking not a batting one, or is selected above a batsman with a higher ranking because he bowls?

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Kallis is a match loser in odis

 

[marc71178]

Kallis is a match loser in odis

Can't have been very good at losing matches then seeing as out of 328 ODI's he was on the losing team 103 times...

 

[OverratedSanity]

An alltime ODI XI based on my ratings

HM Amla
SR Tendulkar
JH Kallis
V Kohli
IVA Richards*
AB de Villiers
MS Dhoni+
Wasim Akram
MA Starc
B Lee
M Muralitharan

Preferred the one with Flintoff. Viv,Dhoni and AB are all batting atleast one spot lower than they should.

 

[Red]

An alltime ODI XI based on my ratings

HM Amla
SR Tendulkar
JH Kallis
V Kohli
IVA Richards*
AB de Villiers
MS Dhoni+
Wasim Akram
MA Starc
B Lee
M Muralitharan

Chuck Flintoff in over Kallis, and re-arrange the batting order, and it's a better team:

HM Amla
SR Tendulkar
IVA Richards *
V Kohli
AB de Villiers
MS Dhoni+
Andrew Flintoff
Wasim Akram
MA Starc
B Lee
M Muralitharan

 

[Bolo]

I feel like this batting lineup would likely win more matches with its higher strike rate, even if you ignore the fact that it is a superior bowling lineup.

Kallis would be a major asset in a very weak batting unit, but a liability in an ATG one.

 

[marc71178]

Problem with picking Flintoff and sticking him at 7 is that he wasn't that effective batting down the order.

 

[stephen]

Honestly that's why Kallis never gets picked in ATG teams of any sort, despite the fact that he would be picked in any real side inn history.

 

[Bolo]

Problem with picking Flintoff and sticking him at 7 is that he wasn't that effective batting down the order.

You could theoretically get around this by batting Flintoff at 6 and Dhoni at 7. While it defies conventional logic to stick a better bat lower down, does it really matter given that they are, on balance, better suited to these positions, and the fact that they have similar strike rates (Flintoffs would actually be better if adjusted for era).

 

[Days of Grace]

I assume Kallis makes it in on an all-round ranking not a batting one, or is selected above a batsman with a higher ranking because he bowls?

Kallis is rated no.1 all rounder in history according to my ratings.

Personally, I would pick almost ten allrounders ahead of him.

My personal XI

ST Jayasuriya
SR Tendulkar
V Kohli
IVA Richards
AB de Villiers
MS Dhoni+
L Klusener
Wasim Akram
SE Bond
J Garner
M Muralitharan

 

[Flem274*]

All-time New Zealand ODI team

MJ Guptill
BB McCullum+
KS Williamson
MD Crowe*
LRPL Taylor
SB Styris
CL Cairns
Sir RJ Hadlee
DL Vettori
SE Bond
TA Boult

Balance of four batsmen, four bowlers, two allrounders and a wicketkeeper.

Astle, Turner, and Oram were close to being selected.

Yeah that'd be my team too. I think at this point nine of those places should be more or less locked in .. you could make a case for including one of the three you mentioned at the end for for Styris and/or Cairns (if it was Turner or Astle I guess McCullum would slide down the order). But that'd be exactly my team.

styris is a bit of a surprise pick

i dunno, kinda feel like it's cheating to get Baz the keeper and Baz the specialist batsman who was a good ODI opener when they occurred simultaneously. a bit like opening with current watling in a test team or taking vettori the early years bowler and latter years batsman.

mccullum strolls into the team as a keeper bat for sure but down the order in mine. was an underrated finisher back in the day. controlled plenty of good chases against aussie in particular back when 350 meant something.

guptill
turner
kane
taylor
crowe (c)
cairns
mccullum
hadlee
vettori
bond
boult

is mine with elliott, astle and a collection of good bowlers on the fringes. not often NZ can ignore a guy with 200+ @ 26 with the ball but sorry kyle mills