Modern era ATGs?

[RK_123]

Who all of the following do you think belongs or should reach the ATG league from current generation players who haven't retired? Some big names I could think of:

Batsmen:

AB de Villiers
Hashim Amla
Virat Kohli
Steven Smith
Joe Root
Kane Williamson

Bowlers:

Dale Steyn
James Anderson
Mitchell Starc
Kagiso Rabada
Josh Hazlewood
Vernon Philander
Trent Boult

What's your take on it? Discuss?

 

[Bolo]

AB de Villiers- nope
Hashim- Amla nope
Virat Kohli- very good chance, but not there yet
Steven Smith- extremely good chance, but not there yet
Joe Root- unlikely
Kane Williamson- unlikely

Bowlers:

Dale Steyn- hell yes
James Anderson- hell nope
Mitchell Starc- reasonable chance
Kagiso Rabada- good chance
Josh Hazlewood- extremely unlikely
Vernon Philander- not too sure how to rate him. Definitely not ATG currently though.
Trent Boult- clearly greater than all of the other players here combined.

 

[fredfertang]

AB de Villiers- nope
Hashim- Amla nope
Virat Kohli- very good chance, but not there yet
Steven Smith- extremely good chance, but not there yet
Joe Root- unlikely
Kane Williamson- unlikely

Bowlers:

Dale Steyn- hell yes
James Anderson- hell nope
Mitchell Starc- reasonable chance
Kagiso Rabada- good chance
Josh Hazlewood- extremely unlikely
Vernon Philander- not too sure how to rate him. Definitely not ATG currently though.
Trent Boult- clearly greater than all of the other players here combined.

Pretty much agree with all that - would put a few quid on Rashid Khan and Mehedy Hasan as well

 

[weldone]

no spinners? I certainly think Ashwin will end up being remembered as ATG, if not at least one among Yasir and Herath and Rashid Khan too

 

[Stefan9]

Steyn is already atg, all the rest have more to do.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Steyn arguably greatest ever bowler.

Smith - ATG

Others No/not yet

 

[Slifer]

When did the modern era begin??

 

[Zinzan]

If we're talking Tests then Steyn, Smith & Rabada are the only ones I'd think, with an outside possibility of Kohli if his Test game continues in this direction.

 

[watson]

Who all of the following do you think belongs or should reach the ATG league from current generation players who haven't retired? Some big names I could think of:

Batsmen:

AB de Villiers
Hashim Amla
Virat Kohli
Steven Smith
Joe Root
Kane Williamson

Bowlers:

Dale Steyn
James Anderson
Mitchell Starc
Kagiso Rabada
Josh Hazlewood
Vernon Philander
Trent Boult

What's your take on it? Discuss?

Isn’t an ATG a player who is measured to be among the best or greatest of their generation?

So most of those players should reach ATG status by their retirement. I’m not sure about some of the bowlers, but all of those batsman are top class are would be stand-outs in any era.

 

[Adders]

Isn’t an ATG a player who is measured to be among the best or greatest of their generation?

So most of those players should reach ATG status by their retirement. I’m not sure about some of the bowlers, but all of those batsman are top class are would be stand-outs in any era.

No.....not at all, afaic anyway.

All Time Great means just that.........A player you can talk about as a great across all generations. All of those players named are greats of their generation but only Dale Steyn is good enough to be considered an All Time Great at this stage.

 

[Zinzan]

Isn’t an ATG a player who is measured to be among the best or greatest of their generation?

So most of those players should reach ATG status by their retirement. I’m not sure about some of the bowlers, but all of those batsman are top class are would be stand-outs in any era.

Not necessarily, to me there's a difference between a "great of their era" like a Chris Cairns, and an "ATG", like a Richard Hadlee.

 

[Red]

AB de Villiers- nope
Hashim- Amla nope
Virat Kohli- very good chance, but not there yet
Steven Smith- extremely good chance, but not there yet
Joe Root- unlikely
Kane Williamson- unlikely

Bowlers:

Dale Steyn- hell yes
James Anderson- hell nope
Mitchell Starc- reasonable chance
Kagiso Rabada- good chance
Josh Hazlewood- extremely unlikely
Vernon Philander- not too sure how to rate him. Definitely not ATG currently though.
Trent Boult- clearly greater than all of the other players here combined.

Depends what we're talking about here. Are we just talking tests, or are we referring to ODIs and T20 also? I only usually refer to tests.

In my opinion, an easy way to label an ATG is whether or not he is a contender for his nation's all time test XI. This is obviously slightly problematic because a) not everyone who plays in the minnow test teams should be an ATG, and b) India has only every produced one ATG quick.

I actually think an easy way to judge an ATG is whether or not that particular player could conceivably break into NZ's all time XI. This is meant as no slight on NZ, but I think they've produced enough borderline ATGs to justify someone who is able to displace one of them in a team being classified an ATG

Eg:

Glenn Turner
Stewie Dempster
Kane Williamson
Martin Crowe
Martin Donnelly
John Reid
Brendon McCullum +
Dan Vettori
Richard Hadlee
Shane Bond
Jack Cowie


Obviously no system is perfect, but I reckon any player (at the end or near the end of his career) capable of displacing one of these is pretty much an ATG.

 

[subshakerz]

Depends what we're talking about here. Are we just talking tests, or are we referring to ODIs and T20 also? I only usually refer to tests.

In my opinion, an easy way to label an ATG is whether or not he is a contender for his nation's all time test XI. This is obviously slightly problematic because a) not everyone who plays in the minnow test teams should be an ATG, and b) India has only every produced one ATG quick.

I actually think an easy way to judge an ATG is whether or not that particular player could conceivably break into NZ's all time XI. This is meant as no slight on NZ, but I think they've produced enough borderline ATGs to justify someone who is able to displace one of them in a team being classified an ATG

Eg:

Glenn Turner
Stewie Dempster
Kane Williamson
Martin Crowe
Martin Donnelly
John Reid
Brendon McCullum +
Dan Vettori
Richard Hadlee
Shane Bond
Jack Cowie


Obviously no system is perfect, but I reckon any player (at the end or near the end of his career) capable of displacing one of these is pretty much an ATG.

To me an all-time great would merit consideration in a shortlist for an all-time XI (at least be considered). We would seriously consider guys like Wasim and Gavaskar for such an XI, but not Walsh or Anderson or Amla, who are world class but below such esteem.

Steyn is easily an all-time great. Rabada, Smith and Kohli are the ones with the best shot.

To be considered for your country's all-time XI would make you a national great or world class, but not an all-time great.

 

[Bolo]

Depends what we're talking about here. Are we just talking tests, or are we referring to ODIs and T20 also? I only usually refer to tests.

In my opinion, an easy way to label an ATG is whether or not he is a contender for his nation's all time test XI. This is obviously slightly problematic because a) not everyone who plays in the minnow test teams should be an ATG, and b) India has only every produced one ATG quick.

I actually think an easy way to judge an ATG is whether or not that particular player could conceivably break into NZ's all time XI. This is meant as no slight on NZ, but I think they've produced enough borderline ATGs to justify someone who is able to displace one of them in a team being classified an ATG

Eg:

Glenn Turner
Stewie Dempster
Kane Williamson
Martin Crowe
Martin Donnelly
John Reid
Brendon McCullum +
Dan Vettori
Richard Hadlee
Shane Bond
Jack Cowie


Obviously no system is perfect, but I reckon any player (at the end or near the end of his career) capable of displacing one of these is pretty much an ATG.

Tests by default. I doubt there is a cricket fan in existence who doesn't consider AB an ATG in ODI.

I'd call what your definition a national ATG. It's a valid way of considering the relative value of players, but I have a bit of an issue with, say Zaheer Khan being called an ATG, but Walsh not cracking a nod- he is objectively better and should not be denigrated to a lesser status due to coming from a country with stronger bowlers.

 

[RK_123]

I think AB is a wierd case. He is not an ATG in tests but close to it. However, there is no doubt that he is an odi ATG.

Moreover, he has the charisma, peer-reputation and fan following which ATGs have. I dont see that in Amla who, to me, is a slightly better test batsmen.

Hence, I don't buy the logic that you need to be an ATG in tests to be called an ATG overall.

 

[Adders]

To me an all-time great would merit consideration in a shortlist for an all-time XI (at least be considered). We would seriously consider guys like Wasim and Gavaskar for such an XI, but not Walsh or Anderson or Amla, who are world class but below such esteem.

Steyn is easily an all-time great. Rabada, Smith and Kohli are the ones with the best shot.

To be considered for your country's all-time XI would make you a national great or world class, but not an all-time great.

Exactly this. An ATG player should not be out of place in a discussion for an All Time World 11. So while not everyone would name Dale Steyn in their 11 he is certainly not out of place discussing him with the likes of Marshall, McGrath Hadlee etc.

Jimmy Anderson is a great player of this generation, arguably makes an England all time 11 (or at least gets close) but no way does he belong in any conversation for an AT World 11. So I think this makes him ATVG.

Steve Smith is well on his way, I can't put him in yet as he's only mid way through his career but it is interesting.......when do you say, yep he's there? Very few would argue Steyns rating as ATG and he's played 86 tests, Steve Smith is currently playing his 63rd so not that far behind really but he's only been around for 8 years compared to Steyns 14.

 

[Flem274*]

If the criteria is 'shortlist for world ATG XI' then does that mean there are only two great spinners? How do we rate specialist #3s like Ponting and Dravid relative to Bradman?

I personally draw a generalised line at 50 for batsmen and sub 25 for pace bowlers (without anything too absurd affecting those averages like say scoring your runs at 80 at home and 23 away) with an appropriate quantity of runs or wickets for their era.

That's just how I do it and I tend to take a more relaxed approach to these things. I think that aside from Bradman you can throw a blanket over the top 10-15 best batsmen and bowlers of all time. Picking the test team to face the martians would probably require a lot of hair splitting over fielding, handiness with the bat etc

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Shakib, Ashwin and ( perhaps) Stokes are a chance. 12 months ago I would've thought QDK, but he's young enough and good enough to turn things around

 

[stephen]

If the criteria is 'shortlist for world ATG XI' then does that mean there are only two great spinners? How do we rate specialist #3s like Ponting and Dravid relative to Bradman?

I personally draw a generalised line at 50 for batsmen and sub 25 for pace bowlers (without anything too absurd affecting those averages like say scoring your runs at 80 at home and 23 away) with an appropriate quantity of runs or wickets for their era.

That's just how I do it and I tend to take a more relaxed approach to these things. I think that aside from Bradman you can throw a blanket over the top 10-15 best batsmen and bowlers of all time. Picking the test team to face the martians would probably require a lot of hair splitting over fielding, handiness with the bat etc

At home yeah you're right. Playing away I'd play Murali, Warne and Kumble given the notorious Martian dust bowls. And forget about picking Ponting.

 

[Victor Ian]

Playing Martians on Mars I'd play those who could play yorkers the best (and bowl them) because anything that bounced would sail over your head