The best after the Don? CW ranked 25 contenders, here is the countdown thread

[Zinzan]

As someone who starting watching cricket in the mid-late 80s as a young nipper, I can tell you that whilst names like Hadlee, Botham, Marshall, Border & Imran were massive,Viv was undoubtedly cricket's best commodity at that point.

 

[centurymaker]

It may be that his playing on is seen by some as selfish in the pursuit of 100 hundreds, as opposed to if that record wasn't on the table and he'd just played on.

FTR I don't mark him down for that, I'm just supposing. I always felt him an enormously selfish player in any event.

Selfish just like Steve Smith. (I find Smith and Sachin so similar in that regard. We have often enough- found them looking to protect or deliberately further their stats & averages in the way they play or decisions they take in certain situations while batting). Both pretty selfish players undoubtedly.


And in complete contrast to the two are --
Ponting and Kohli, who are both quite selfless and would do anything to win, would happily sacrifice personal stats and averages to improve team's chances of winning. We have seen it in their play and in the decisions they take while batting. Both similar to each other. And personality wise too.

 

[Burgey]

Smith has batted three when it’s been in his team’s best interests. Tendulkar wouldn’t do it.

 

[harsh.ag]

Smith has batted three when it’s been in his team’s best interests. Tendulkar wouldn’t do it.

Hey he opened once when an opener got injured. Let Dravid be at number 3. WAG.

 

[cnerd123]

Even if Sachin was willing to bat at 3, I don't think he was anymore suited to it than Dravid/Laxman were.

Who else batted 3 over Sachin's career? Were there any situations where he should have batted at 3 due to lack of options, but didn't do so?

Also Idk how much Sachin is 'selfish' rather than just unwilling to be a leader. He didn't like captaincy either, and never spoke like a leader either.

 

[Burgey]

Wasn’t there a tour of England he went on where India was as short of batsmen for whatever reason and Dravid went to opener but he wouldn’t move up to three? It may have been around the time gambhir cracked his head on the ground but didn’t have any sense knocked into him. I can’t be arsed looking it up.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Wasn’t there a tour of England he went on where India was as short of batsmen for whatever reason and Dravid went to opener but he wouldn’t move up to three? It may have been around the time gambhir cracked his head on the ground but didn’t have any sense knocked into him. I can’t be arsed looking it up.

VVS always wanted to bat 3 but couldn't because we had Dravid, so it made perfect sense for him to move up.

Took the piss towards the end of his career though. Think there was a game vs Australia where Dhawan got injured and VVS and Dravid had already retired. After 23 years it finally seemed like the moment had arrived.

And then Virat Kohli walked out.

 

[Burgey]

Perhaps that was the game I was thinking of.

 

[Victor Ian]

...And in complete contrast to the two are --
Ponting and Kohli, who are both quite selfless and would do anything to win, would happily sacrifice personal stats and averages to improve team's chances of winning. We have seen it in their play and in the decisions they take while batting. Both similar to each other. And personality wise too.

Watching Kohli go off at the umps the other day for a crap outfield or something, I was immediatly thinking it was Ponting - plus beard. I don't know why that used to aggravate people. What better captain than one who will speak up on the teams behalf and has nothing but their best interests at heart. People will hate Kohli too, but he earned more points from me. Plays at the pace or style needed too, not the pace that preserves his numbers.

 

[cnerd123]

VVS always wanted to bat 3 but couldn't because we had Dravid, so it made perfect sense for him to move up.

Took the piss towards the end of his career though. Think there was a game vs Australia where Dhawan got injured and VVS and Dravid had already retired. After 23 years it finally seemed like the moment had arrived.

And then Virat Kohli walked out.

Kohli relishes batting at 3 too tho, doesn't he? He's only in at 4 now cuz of Che Pu / too many openers / lack of strong middle order candidates.

 

[GuyFromLancs]

The last 2 years were the Sachin show. It went too far.

 

[centurymaker]

Watching Kohli go off at the umps the other day for a crap outfield or something, I was immediatly thinking it was Ponting - plus beard. I don't know why that used to aggravate people. What better captain than one who will speak up on the teams behalf and has nothing but their best interests at heart. People will hate Kohli too, but he earned more points from me. Plays at the pace or style needed too, not the pace that preserves his numbers.

Yeah and he doesn't bother with not outs either. Almost all of his 6 double tons could have been unbeaten innings but he always looks to hit out before declarations, tries to get some additional super quick runs rather than preserve his average. In fact, he did the same vs South Africa at Centurion 2 days ago when he was batting with the tail and then with No.11. Looked to smash more runs but was caught on boundary on 150 odd.

Thus he has just 8 not outs in about 110 innings, while someone like Steve Smith has 16 not outs in almost same no. of innings.

In fact Steve Smith's ratio of not outs per innings is the best (1 in 7 innings). Even the impossible to dismiss Bradman had 10 not outs in 80 innings (which is 1 in 8 innings). Tendulkar around 1 in 10 innings. Kohli 1 in 13.5 innings. Viv 1 in 15 innings.

And it make me wonder why we don't use runs per innings instead of batting average. Not outs are quite pointless in the end, contribute absolutely nothing towards helping your team win, in fact the lure of remaining unbeaten can hinder your team's chances in fact.

I wonder how the runs per innings list would pan out for all the batsmen with 50+ average.

 

[centurymaker]

The last 2 years were the Sachin show. It went too far.

Yeah, should have retired after the Aus tour in 2011/12. That was the last time he batted reasonably well but was in rapid decline. It would have been 'cooler' had he finished on 99 tons.


Its hard to believe how cricketers are able to outlast footballers by a long way. In football, the players decline from late 20s, and pretty rapidly from around 30, while in cricket batsmen are often in their absolute prime from their late 20s to early 30s. (complete opposite) And the prime sometimes continues well into the 30s.

 

[Coronis]

I wonder how the runs per innings list would pan out for all the batsmen with 50+ average.

Ordered by runs per innings.

D.G Bradman 99.94 87.45
R.G Pollock 60.97 55.02
E.D Weekes 58.61 55.00
G.A Headley 60.83 54.75
S.P.D Smith 63.75 54.57
H. Sutcliffe 60.73 54.23
K.C Sangakkara 57.40 53.22
J.B Hobbs 56.94 53.04
K.F Barrington 58.67 51.95
W.R Hammond 58.45 51.78
V.G Kambli 54.20 51.62
B.C Lara 52.88 51.52
C.L Walcott 56.68 51.32
L. Hutton 56.67 50.51
G.S Sobers 57.78 50.20
E. Paynter 59.23 49.68
V Kohli 53.51 49.63
G.E Tyldesley 55.00 49.50
S.R Tendulkar 53.78 48.39
Mohammad Yousuf 52.29 48.27
J.E Root 53.28 47.91
A.C Voges 61.87 47.90
A.D Nourse 53.81 47.74
J.H Kallis 55.37 47.46
Younis Khan 52.05 47.41
S.M Gavaskar 51.12 47.30
C.A Pujara 51.09 47.29
G.S Chappell 53.86 47.09
I.V.A Richards 50.23 46.92
M.L Hayden 50.73 46.88
Javed Miandad 52.57 46.73
R.T Ponting 51.85 46.61
Rahul Dravid 52.31 46.46
K.S Williamson 50.62 46.14
A.B de Villiers 50.46 46.01
M.E.K Hussey 51.52 45.51
C.A Davis 54.20 44.86
D.C.S Compton 50.06 44.33
J. Ryder 51.62 43.56
A. Flower 51.54 42.80
S. Chanderpaul 51.37 42.38
A.R Border 50.56 42.17
S.R Waugh 51.06 42.03

 

[Burgey]

Voges under rated again....

 

[Zinzan]

Yeah, Lara's hardly changes. I remember being surprised to learn he only had something like 5 not-outs in his 230 innings career,

 

[ankitj]

Having fewer not outs is a bad thing.

 

[marc71178]

Thus he has just 8 not outs in about 110 innings, while someone like Steve Smith has 16 not outs in almost same no. of innings.

And that's got nothing to do with Smith being harder to dismiss is it? Talk about a moronic argument.

 

[Days of Grace]

How about those times when a batsman scores 8 not out at the end of a chase?

Are those going to count as 8?

The average is just runs scored per dismissal, is it not?

I think there was an it figures study a while ago that combined average and runs per innings to find a “true” average.

 

[stephen]

And that's got nothing to do with Smith being harder to dismiss is it? Talk about a moronic argument.

Or running out of partners (awfully quickly at times) while set. Smith has more not outs because he bats longer and scores more runs than anyone.