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The best after the Don? CW ranked 25 contenders, here is the countdown thread
- Thread starter mr_mister
- Start date
Coronis
International Coach
Add in his bowling and surely he's top 3 behind Bradman and Sobers?
OverratedSanity
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Imran
As well as his catching - surely top 3.
a massive zebra
International Captain
Mr Sutcliffe was/is not considered among the very greatest batsmen despite considerable statistical evidence to the contrary, but personally I think your reasoning above is nonsense.
Sutcliffe was hardly the most elegant or exciting player in history. A steady accumulator with great patience and a watertight defence, he made copious use of an angled bat and seldom played in the region between point and mid-on — the strokes of grace and grandeur that elevated cricket to visual delight and stimulated poetic paeans from the likes of Neville Cardus. He played in possibly the highest scoring era ever with very few all time great fast bowlers, made extensive use of his pads at a time when the ball had to pitch in line with the stumps in order for an LBW to be given, and never made any gargantuan scores in Tests.
Hobbs proved himself pre war (a much tougher era for batsmen), was a complete batsman who played all the classical shots, and had a fifth gear which he was able to use to take quality attacks apart.
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Coronis
International Coach
He did refer to "out of this lot" iirc Imran isn't on this list.
OverratedSanity
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Neither is Bradman
You could apply a lot of that to Steve Smith.
a massive zebra
International Captain
Which kind of proves my point, because he probably also isn't rated as highly as the stats suggest he should be.
fredfertang
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I was surprised there were so many so had a look at these scorecards - didn't go beyond that though I hasten to add - but it does look like on all bar two of those occasions the Pakistanis were either on their way to victory or a draw was almost certain and whichever way you cut it the home side were not going to be in any difficulty with Javed back in the pavilion - the two exceptions are the Emburey and Brain ones where, in neither case, was the game sufficiently far advanced to reach that conclusion at the time of the decision, but in neither match did Pakistan ever get into difficulty
So I think flametree's basic point stands - getting an important decision out of a Pakistani umpire against Javed was exceptionally difficult
fredfertang
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Only out by a generation though - the genes were the right ones
According to Charles Davis's stats, he (Sutcliffe) and Bradman have the longest average innings in Tests (164 balls per dismissal).
mr_mister
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
#16
Allan Border (251 points) FC average of 51.38, FC H.S of 205, 70 FC centuries
A short stocky frame and a shot repertoire consisting mainly of swipes across the line and the odd slash through point, Border will take no prizes for aesthetics. But his grit and determination and his ability to score runs in all conditions must have counted heavily in his favour when the lists were submitted. He averaged over 50 in England, West Indies and India in an insanely tough time for travelling cricketers. Border only scored one test double century, which was also his highest ever first class score, and his 50s to 100 conversion rate wasn't pretty, but the amount of important fifties he scored when his side was in dire straits is commendable. Constantly having to dig his side out of a hole after blokes like Greg Ritchie failed is a tough ask. He was also the first player to crack 150 tests, so his career longevity was also unheard of at the time. And averaging over 50 against some of the bowlers he faced is a true achievement.
Allan Border (251 points) FC average of 51.38, FC H.S of 205, 70 FC centuries
A short stocky frame and a shot repertoire consisting mainly of swipes across the line and the odd slash through point, Border will take no prizes for aesthetics. But his grit and determination and his ability to score runs in all conditions must have counted heavily in his favour when the lists were submitted. He averaged over 50 in England, West Indies and India in an insanely tough time for travelling cricketers. Border only scored one test double century, which was also his highest ever first class score, and his 50s to 100 conversion rate wasn't pretty, but the amount of important fifties he scored when his side was in dire straits is commendable. Constantly having to dig his side out of a hole after blokes like Greg Ritchie failed is a tough ask. He was also the first player to crack 150 tests, so his career longevity was also unheard of at the time. And averaging over 50 against some of the bowlers he faced is a true achievement.
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mr_mister
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
#15
Kumar Sangakkara (290 points) FC average of 52.40, FC H.S of 319, 64 FC centuries
Sanga on the other hand looked elegant with every shot he played. His cover drive especially was supreme. The man started off as an okay keeper who was more value to the team for his batting, which had yet to set the world on fire though it was important. Once they took the gloves off him however his batting career boomed. He ended up averaging 66 from 86 tests without the gloves. His test batting average of 57 overall is higher than all his peers sans Steve Smith and Adam Voges if you want to call them 'peers'.
What impresses me however is the fact that he didn't average under 40 against any test nation. He brought his A game against all bowling attacks, and though he did average under 40 in certain countries he more than made up for it in home tests against the same bowlers, South Africa being one example. He scored 11 test double centuries, second only to the Don. So he could just bat and bat when set. He was even scoring buckets of FC runs as late as last year in English county cricket. What a player.
Kumar Sangakkara (290 points) FC average of 52.40, FC H.S of 319, 64 FC centuries
Sanga on the other hand looked elegant with every shot he played. His cover drive especially was supreme. The man started off as an okay keeper who was more value to the team for his batting, which had yet to set the world on fire though it was important. Once they took the gloves off him however his batting career boomed. He ended up averaging 66 from 86 tests without the gloves. His test batting average of 57 overall is higher than all his peers sans Steve Smith and Adam Voges if you want to call them 'peers'.
What impresses me however is the fact that he didn't average under 40 against any test nation. He brought his A game against all bowling attacks, and though he did average under 40 in certain countries he more than made up for it in home tests against the same bowlers, South Africa being one example. He scored 11 test double centuries, second only to the Don. So he could just bat and bat when set. He was even scoring buckets of FC runs as late as last year in English county cricket. What a player.
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mr_mister
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
#14
Barry Richards (293 points) FC average of 54.74, FC H.S of 356. 80 FC centuries
The greatest what-if story of them all in cricket. Bradman had him opening in his own fantasy ATG XI, he rated him that highly. Barry's test career was cut dramatically short due to Apartheid. But his FC record, especially for an opener, was amazing. He scored 9 FC centuries before lunch on day 1 of an FC match. Travelling the cricketing world as a mercenary after his country was banned from tests, he scored runs in Australia, he scored them in England. If you include the 5 world series super tests he played in alongside the actual 4 test matches, his record reads about ~75 from 9 'tests'. I've only read about him, don't think I've even seen much footage of him, so there's not much more for me to say. He's certainly a hard player to rate, some might think his mere inclusion in this list is blasphemy, others might think he should have been ranked higher. Let the debate begin
Barry Richards (293 points) FC average of 54.74, FC H.S of 356. 80 FC centuries
The greatest what-if story of them all in cricket. Bradman had him opening in his own fantasy ATG XI, he rated him that highly. Barry's test career was cut dramatically short due to Apartheid. But his FC record, especially for an opener, was amazing. He scored 9 FC centuries before lunch on day 1 of an FC match. Travelling the cricketing world as a mercenary after his country was banned from tests, he scored runs in Australia, he scored them in England. If you include the 5 world series super tests he played in alongside the actual 4 test matches, his record reads about ~75 from 9 'tests'. I've only read about him, don't think I've even seen much footage of him, so there's not much more for me to say. He's certainly a hard player to rate, some might think his mere inclusion in this list is blasphemy, others might think he should have been ranked higher. Let the debate begin
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Good thread!
Just wondering why you are using first class stats for all batsmen and not test stats.
Also I rely dont think barry richards should be there, sorry you cant be a hypothetical great whatever the circumstances.
First class records are meaningless to test cricket
Just wondering why you are using first class stats for all batsmen and not test stats.
Also I rely dont think barry richards should be there, sorry you cant be a hypothetical great whatever the circumstances.
First class records are meaningless to test cricket
The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
AB actually got two Test double tons - there was also the 200 not out in England in '93.#16
Allan Border (251 points) FC average of 51.38, FC H.S of 205, 70 FC centuries
A short stocky frame and a shot repertoire consisting mainly of swipes across the line and the odd slash through point, Border will take no prizes for aesthetics. But his grit and determination and his ability to score runs in all conditions must have counted heavily in his favour when the lists were submitted. He averaged over 50 in England, West Indies and India in an insanely tough time for travelling cricketers. Border only scored one test double century, which was also his highest ever first class score, and his 50s to 100 conversion rate wasn't pretty, but the amount of important fifties he scored when his side was in dire straits is commendable. Constantly having to dig his side out of a hole after blokes like Greg Ritchie failed is a tough ask. He was also the first player to crack 150 tests, so his career longevity was also unheard of at the time. And averaging over 50 against some of the bowlers he faced is a true achievement.