The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[srbhkshk]

He was statistically worse than Symonds as a batsman and bowler. His longevity makes up for it somewhat. But the real thing which separates them is that Yuvi didn't bowl anywhere near as much as Symonds did. Symonds took more career wickets than Yuvi despite playing 2/3 the number of games.

Well that's because he is a spinner, and India typically have 2 front-line spinners in the team anyway, that is not relevant for the ATG team. Besides, they aren't expected to pitch in with more than 4-5 overs anyway. I also think he is the better batsman regardless of what the statistics say here.

Anyway, I don't think either of them should be anywhere above the 3rd ATG side in any case.

 

[akilana]

The closest thing Kohli has to a hole in his record is his away average of 32 vs England, 37 vs South Africa and 43 vs Australia.

I'd take a batsman with a "poor" record of 43 in Australia vs Australia any day of the week. The guy is a gun.

I wasn’t arguing averages. Just wondering what are his best knocks/chase against those countries

 

[OverratedSanity]

Well that's because he is a spinner, and India typically have 2 front-line spinners in the team anyway, that is not relevant for the ATG team. Besides, they aren't expected to pitch in with more than 4-5 overs anyway. I also think he is the better batsman regardless of what the statistics say here.

Anyway, I don't think either of them should be anywhere above the 3rd ATG side in any case.

Yeah you'd take someone like Klusener who performed a similar role over them for sure.

 

[akilana]

My point was that Symonds is top drawer material for a lower order hitter and part time bowler. He really doesn't have many comparable players. People consider Jayasuria an ATG and he has worse stats than Symonds (excluding longevity). Almost all of the statistically comparable players to Symonds batted higher in the order where it's easier to get the big averages.

Problem with Jaya is he played over 400 ODIs. He played for SL so he got selected even before he came of age as a player therefore his overall statistics suffered. I think I can find a period of 200 matches in Jaya’s career where he has a very respectable record.

What about Klusener. He averaged something like 40 but mostly batted down the order.

 

[OverratedSanity]

My point was that Symonds is top drawer material for a lower order hitter and part time bowler. He really doesn't have many comparable players. People consider Jayasuria an ATG and he has worse stats than Symonds (excluding longevity). Almost all of the statistically comparable players to Symonds batted higher in the order where it's easier to get the big averages.

Thats because your only looking at averages. What about number of tons? Strike rate, which for Jayasuriya is insane because he was striking 90+ in the 1990s?

The longevity hurts his average statistics. Which is why raw averages are dumb when you compare careers of such different lengths.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Also don't agree with the idea that it's tougher to average higher down the order. That seems completely backwards to me. No way would Dhoni or Bevan average in the 50s if they batted higher up the order.

 

[srbhkshk]

I wasn’t arguing averages. Just wondering what are his best knocks/chase against those countries

These would be the good ones, India lost quite a few of these matches, but it's mostly down to other batsman.

 

[stephen]

Also don't agree with the idea that it's tougher to average higher down the order. That seems completely backwards to me. No way would Dhoni or Bevan average in the 50s if they batted higher up the order.

Likewise Tendulkar, Ponting, Lara and Hayden wouldn't have such a high average batting 5/6 instead of 1-3.

Bevan and Dhoni were both suited to the middle order. But there aren't too many high averaging middle order batsmen who also scored at a high strike rate. The highest averaging batting spots in ODIs are 1-4. The ones that do are usually considered really good players.

 

[stephen]

Thats because your only looking at averages. What about number of tons? Strike rate, which for Jayasuriya is insane because he was striking 90+ in the 1990s?

The longevity hurts his average statistics. Which is why raw averages are dumb when you compare careers of such different lengths.

I'm not arguing that Symonds > Jaya. Jaya was clearly a better player than Symonds for longer. I was mostly just pointing out that direct statistical comparisons aren't everything.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Likewise Tendulkar, Ponting, Lara and Hayden wouldn't have such a high average batting 5/6 instead of 1-3.
.

Thoroughly disagree. They'd have piled up the notouts.

 

[stephen]

Problem with Jaya is he played over 400 ODIs. He played for SL so he got selected even before he came of age as a player therefore his overall statistics suffered. I think I can find a period of 200 matches in Jaya’s career where he has a very respectable record.

What about Klusener. He averaged something like 40 but mostly batted down the order.

Klusener was a better bowler than Symonds but not as good of a batsman. And he played even less than Symonds. I'd pick him if I wanted a genuine 5th bowler with no backup but not as a 6th bowler.

 

[stephen]

Thoroughly disagree. They'd have piled up the notouts.

Take a look at Lara's record. He averaged 45 batting 1-3 and around 32 batting 4-6. He played just over half his cricket batting 1-3.

 

[Gowza]

1 Tendulkar
2 Gilchrist
3 Viv
4 Kohli
5 de villiers
6 Hussey
7 flintoff/shakib
8 Pollock
9 Warne
10 murali
11 mcgrath

 

[srbhkshk]

IMO, it's not really a case of batting position affecting the average. The players who come down the order often have to deal with situations where they just need to start hitting out the moment they come in, but they also get situations where the team has basically won already and all they need to do is get a 25 not out in 35 balls. The top order batsman have the advantage that they don't have to restart their innings every time they are on 40*, but they also have to deal with a new ball and fresh bowlers/fielders.

Rather I'd say it's more about what batsman is suited to which position plus the fact that most teams almost always have their best three batsman within the top four so in general you will find the higher averaging batsman there, the 5-6-7 are typically loaded with players who can strike big even if they are not very consistent so you'd expect averages to be slightly lower at these positions.

So overall I think the most important factor is the position that a batsman is suited to, people like Yuvi/Symo will not average 40 at the top of the order, they are not suited to those positions. Similarly Sachin/Lara will not average 45 in the lower order. (I am not using Dhoni/Bevan/Kohli as examples here, because I feel those are very capable batsman who will average decent regardless of where they play, but probably not as good as what they do right now.)

 

[Red]

I'd prefer someone like a de Villiers and then picking another proper batsman.

He's being selected because of a "bit of this" and "bit of that" which is pure bits and pieces - his entire package is way below ATG level in every facet except fielding (and even then it's not is if the slight drop off to say a Ponting is worth the considerable increase in batting you'd gain.

I already have DeVilliers in my side.

And FWIW, if you want to argue this, I'll argue it.

I'm not selecting him as "bits and pieces", which you are clearly using as a derogatory term. Symonds spent the majority of his career in the 5/6/7 slots. His role, which he excelled at, was to close the innings with powerful hitting. He did this consistently. You mention Ponting. Which is fine. But Ponting batted at 3. That was his role. I can't include Ponting over Viv, and now Kohli has locked in at either 3 or 4. So there is no space for Ponting in my estimation. I'm not going to play Ponting at 6.

And further, FWIW, let's be realistic here. Ponting's average was 42 and his SR was 80. Symonds' average was 40 and his SR was 92. So in terms of raw stats, he is on par with Ponting with a superior SR, plus I am playing him in the spot he belongs in (I know Ponting was a superior bat etc, but we are selecting teams with players playing their roles here).

So I am interested to know why you think a guy with an ODI batting average of 40, and a SR of 92, batting in the role that he played in, in a role that suited him, is "way below ATG level". Like, I'm seriously interested to know.

 

[watson]

Trying to solve the middle-order problem of 5-6-7........

(In order of batting average)

No.5 > 1500 Runs
01. AB de Villiers - 78 / 109 (pretty amazing)
02. MS Dhoni - 54 / 88
03. Angelo Matthews - 52 / 87
04. Misbah ul Haq - 48 / 76
05. Andrew Flintoff - 46 / 94
06. Andrew Symonds - 45 / 92
07. Mike Hussey - 44 / 85
08. Rahul Dravid - 44 / 74
09. Paul Collingwood - 43 / 83
10. Shivnarine Chanderpaul - 43 / 72


No.6 > 1500 Runs
01. Michael Bevan - 57 / 78
02. MS Dhoni - 46 / 84
03. Russell Arnold - 45 / 75
04. Mike Hussey - 40 / 88
05. Umar Akmal - 37 / 88
06. Yuvraj Singh - 37 / 84
07. Suresh Raina - 36 / 93
08. Angelo Matthews - 34 / 81
09. Jonty Rhodes - 32 / 82
10. Mark Boucher - 30 / 83


No.7 > 1000 Runs
01. Marmudullah - 34 / 77
02. Abdul Razzak - 32 / 90
03. Chris Harris - 31 / 67
04. Ravi Jadeja - 30 / 83
05. Elton Chigumbura - 30 / 81
06. Shaun Pollock - 30 / 89
07. Khaled Mashud - 26 / 58
08. Moin Khan - 24 / 82
09. Kapil Dev - 24 / 88
10. Shahid Afridi - 23 / 131


Mike Hussey at No.7 (I can’t find anyone better under a 1000 runs)
Innings - 21
Runs - 725
Average - 121
Strike Rate - 101
100s - 0
50s - 5


Based on those numbers, tending toward the ‘big names’ (no offence to Angelo Matthews, Russell Arnold, Ravi Jadeja or Abdul Razzak) and fitting a World Class 5th bowler into the eleven.....


First Team
05. AB de Villers
06. Michael Bevan / MS Dhoni
07. Kapil Dev / Shaun Pollock

Second Team
05. Andrew Symonds
06. Mike Hussey
07. Kapil Dev / Shaun Pollock

Or perhaps
05. Andrew Flintoff
06. Michael Bevan / MS Dhoni
07. Mike Hussey


If Kapil or Pollock are selected at No.7 then the No.8 must be reasonable batsman because batting depth is vital for a ODI team even if the top 6 are filled with stars.

The discussion now becomes whether Wasim Akram is good enough to hold down the No.8 spot if he has Garner, Murali and McGrath to follow.

 

[Days of Grace]

Without too much thought,

Tendulkar
Gilchrist (wk)
Richards
Kohli
De Villiers
Bevan
Klusener
Pollock
Wasim Akram
McGrath
Muralitharan

12th man: Warne

 

[stephen]

Trying to solve the middle-order problem of 5-6-7........

(In order of batting average)

No.5 > 1500 Runs
01. AB de Villiers - 78 / 109 (pretty amazing)
02. MS Dhoni - 54 / 88
03. Angelo Matthews - 52 / 87
04. Misbah ul Haq - 48 / 76
05. Andrew Flintoff - 46 / 94
06. Andrew Symonds - 45 / 92
07. Mike Hussey - 44 / 85
08. Rahul Dravid - 44 / 74
09. Paul Collingwood - 43 / 83
10. Shivnarine Chanderpaul - 43 / 72


No.6 > 1500 Runs
01. Michael Bevan - 57 / 78
02. MS Dhoni - 46 / 84
03. Russell Arnold - 45 / 75
04. Mike Hussey - 40 / 88
05. Umar Akmal - 37 / 88
06. Yuvraj Singh - 37 / 84
07. Suresh Raina - 36 / 93
08. Angelo Matthews - 34 / 81
09. Jonty Rhodes - 32 / 82
10. Mark Boucher - 30 / 83


No.7 > 1000 Runs
01. Marmudullah - 34 / 77
02. Abdul Razzak - 32 / 90
03. Chris Harris - 31 / 67
04. Ravi Jadeja - 30 / 83
05. Elton Chigumbura - 30 / 81
06. Shaun Pollock - 30 / 89
07. Khaled Mashud - 26 / 58
08. Moin Khan - 24 / 82
09. Kapil Dev - 24 / 88
10. Shahid Afridi - 23 / 131


Mike Hussey at No.7 (I can’t find anyone better under a 1000 runs)
Innings - 21
Runs - 725
Average - 121
Strike Rate - 101
100s - 0
50s - 5


Based on those numbers, tending toward the ‘big names’ (no offence to Angelo Matthews, Russell Arnold, Ravi Jadeja or Abdul Razzak) and fitting a World Class 5th bowler into the eleven.....


First Team
05. AB de Villers
06. Michael Bevan / MS Dhoni
07. Kapil Dev / Shaun Pollock

Second Team
05. Andrew Symonds
06. Mike Hussey
07. Kapil Dev / Shaun Pollock

Or perhaps
05. Andrew Flintoff
06. Michael Bevan / MS Dhoni
07. Mike Hussey


If Kapil or Pollock are selected at No.7 then the No.8 must be reasonable batsman because batting depth is vital for a ODI team even if the top 6 are filled with stars.

The discussion now becomes whether Wasim Akram is good enough to hold down the No.8 spot if he has Garner, Murali and McGrath to follow.

Why focus on batting average and not strike rate for a #7? If you need your number 7 to average a lot it means your top order hasn't done enough, which won't be the case with an ATG side. Strike rate and average are both important. The average tells you how good they were at surviving and the strike rate tells you how good they were at hitting and turning over the strike.

Personally in an ODI side I would have all rounders at 6 and 7 in most cases. If my order is:

Gilly
Tendulkar
Viv
Kohli
ABDV
Bevan

I would be looking more at bowling abilities than batting abilities for this spot and probably pick Klusener or maybe even Pollock.

With Jaya instead of Gilly and Dhoni instead of Bevan, I'd care more about batting but would still need an all rounder (i.e. Symonds).

If we could squeeze an M Waugh in the top order then I would go for Hussey at 7 but Waugh would need to replace a pure batsman - probably Tendulkar.

Team composition is so much more important in an ODI side than it is in a test side. You really can't just pick the six best batsmen, the best keeper/bat and the best 4 bowlers. You need to think a lot more about where you get the "other" ten overs from and who is going to up the pace in the final overs of your innings. You also need a specialist chaser/anchor in the middle order. You should have an explosive opener and a steady opener.

ODI cricket is a far more specialised game than any other form and because of this stats alone are not necessarily the best indicator of a player's value.

 

[watson]

Why focus on batting average and not strike rate for a #7? If you need your number 7 to average a lot it means your top order hasn't done enough, which won't be the case with an ATG side. Strike rate and average are both important. The average tells you how good they were at surviving and the strike rate tells you how good they were at hitting and turning over the strike.

Kapil Dev struck at 88 when batting at No.7 and 95 overall. This is phenomenal considering Kapil played in the days when they used a bit of 4-by-2 as a bat and the boundary was the boundary, not a piece of rope. As a bowler he was every bit as miserly as McGrath in relative terms.

Pollock’s Strike Rate of 89 at No.7 is more than acceptable, and as a bowler he is easily all-time top 10 material.

So if you pick Pollock or Kapil at No.7 you get an attacking batsman capable of smashing boundaries and a class bowler capable of pinning down opposing batsman at the same time.

Lance Klusener averaged 40 which is superb for a No.7-8 batsman, but his Strike Rate of 90 is no improvement on Kapil or Pollock who hit just as big.

So the question is - do you go for the more reliable batsman but inferior bowler at No.7, or do you go for the less reliable batsman but superior bowler at No.7?


01. Matthew Hayden
02. Sachin Tendulkar
03. Virat Kohli
04. Viv Richards
05. AB de Villiers
06. MS Dhoni
07. Kapil Dev 5
08. Richard Hadlee 2
09. Wasim Akram 3
10. Muttiah Muralitharan 4
11. Glenn McGrath 1

 

[CricAddict]

Let me go England.

Jayasuriya
Tendulkar
Viv
Kohli/AB (Kallis is too slow to pick)
Dhoni
Symonds
Kapil Dev/ Klusenar
Pollock
Akram
Hadlee
Warne

Try bowling out this team or thrashing specific bowlers out of the attack. They will keep coming in. And aggression all over.