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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread
- Thread starter Red
- Start date
mr_mister
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
West Indies:
Conrad Hunte
Clyde Walcott +
George Headley
Everton Weekes
Frank Worrell (6)
Basil Butcher
Learie Constantine (2)
Collie Smith (5)
Wes Hall (1)
Sonny Ramadhin (4)
Alf Valentine (3)
Sobers did player the one ODI. But if you include him then damn that's a solid team
Conrad Hunte
Clyde Walcott +
George Headley
Everton Weekes
Frank Worrell (6)
Basil Butcher
Learie Constantine (2)
Collie Smith (5)
Wes Hall (1)
Sonny Ramadhin (4)
Alf Valentine (3)
Sobers did player the one ODI. But if you include him then damn that's a solid team
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Lillian Thomson
Hall of Fame Member
Conceded the winnings runs off the last ball of his bowling to Bob Willis, so his credentials are patchy.
bagapath
International Captain
Trumper
Bradman
Harvey
Miller
Gregory
Noble
Armstong
Benaud (c)
Lindwall
Davidson
Blackham (wk)
A slightly modified England XI, with more write-ups:
1. Jack Hobbs: Maybe the greatest opener of all time, he was a respectably fast scorer for his time (especially in his youth), and also a renowned cover point fielder
2. Frank Woolley: "When I am batting, I am the attack" - what better endorsement for a one-day cricketer could you have? Especially when you take into account his left-arm spin and excellent close-in fielding.
3. Wally Hammond: Generally played more of an anchor role in Test cricket, but capable of scoring 300 in under 5 hours when the mood took him. An economical bowler and another fine catcher.
4. Denis Compton: Another famous strokemaker, his fast scoring was a feature of the strong Middlesex team of the 40s. Scored 273 in under a day against Pakistan, and 300 in about half that time against NE Transvaal. Plus his left-arm wrist spin could be useful in an emergency.
5. Ted Dexter: The first captain to win a significant List A trophy (the 1963 Gillette Cup), he was another glorious strokemaker and a canny bowler in one-day cricket.
6. Gilbert Jessop: A legend of fast scoring, with a strike-rate of well over a run a ball in Test cricket, a great outfielder and a capable fast bowler.
7. Les Ames: A Kent team-mate of Woolley, he once outscored his older partner as they destroyed Gloucestershire, and a more than capable keeper.
8. Maurice Tate: A wholehearted and accurate medium-fast bowler who could bowl all day but would be equally happy to tie up an end for his 10 overs, and an extremely dangerous late-order batsman.
9. Johnny Wardle: Another miserly bowler, who could bowl both types of left-arm spin, and another hard hitting tail-ender.
10. Harold Larwood: Famed for his accurate, lethally fast bowling, few could score quickly off Larwood. Again, a useful tail-ender who nearly scored a Test hundred.
11. Alec Bedser: Another who would relish a difficult pitch, and keep it tight on a flat one, and another capable tail-end batsman.
Second XI:
WG Grace
Colin Milburn
Bill Edrich
Ranjitsinhji
Percy Chapman
Jim Parks+
Frank Foster
Billy Bates
Hedley Verity
Brian Statham
Sydney Barnes
1. Jack Hobbs: Maybe the greatest opener of all time, he was a respectably fast scorer for his time (especially in his youth), and also a renowned cover point fielder
2. Frank Woolley: "When I am batting, I am the attack" - what better endorsement for a one-day cricketer could you have? Especially when you take into account his left-arm spin and excellent close-in fielding.
3. Wally Hammond: Generally played more of an anchor role in Test cricket, but capable of scoring 300 in under 5 hours when the mood took him. An economical bowler and another fine catcher.
4. Denis Compton: Another famous strokemaker, his fast scoring was a feature of the strong Middlesex team of the 40s. Scored 273 in under a day against Pakistan, and 300 in about half that time against NE Transvaal. Plus his left-arm wrist spin could be useful in an emergency.
5. Ted Dexter: The first captain to win a significant List A trophy (the 1963 Gillette Cup), he was another glorious strokemaker and a canny bowler in one-day cricket.
6. Gilbert Jessop: A legend of fast scoring, with a strike-rate of well over a run a ball in Test cricket, a great outfielder and a capable fast bowler.
7. Les Ames: A Kent team-mate of Woolley, he once outscored his older partner as they destroyed Gloucestershire, and a more than capable keeper.
8. Maurice Tate: A wholehearted and accurate medium-fast bowler who could bowl all day but would be equally happy to tie up an end for his 10 overs, and an extremely dangerous late-order batsman.
9. Johnny Wardle: Another miserly bowler, who could bowl both types of left-arm spin, and another hard hitting tail-ender.
10. Harold Larwood: Famed for his accurate, lethally fast bowling, few could score quickly off Larwood. Again, a useful tail-ender who nearly scored a Test hundred.
11. Alec Bedser: Another who would relish a difficult pitch, and keep it tight on a flat one, and another capable tail-end batsman.
Second XI:
WG Grace
Colin Milburn
Bill Edrich
Ranjitsinhji
Percy Chapman
Jim Parks+
Frank Foster
Billy Bates
Hedley Verity
Brian Statham
Sydney Barnes
Lillian Thomson
Hall of Fame Member
Fred Trueman must turning in his grave.
This reminds me of a light-hearted series of articles in Wisden Cricket Monthly in 1988-9 called "A Heavenly Match" in which Gatting and Border were summoned to heaven to captain an England-Australia 50 over match. The teams were:
Hobbs, Grace, Hammond, Ranji, Jessop, Gatting*, Foster, Lilley+, Rhodes, Richardson, Barnes
Trumper, Ponsford, Hill, McCabe, Armstrong, Border*, Gregory, Giffen, Oldfield+, McDonald, Grimmett
Naturally, besides Border and Gatting, only players who had died before the end of 1988 could be included. That got me wondering - could you get a stronger XI from currently living players or from deceased players? The XIs being something like:
Gavaskar, Richards (B), Richards (V), Pollock, Tendulkar, Sobers, Gilchrist, Imran, Hadlee, Warne, McGrath
Hobbs, Hutton, Bradman, Hammond, Headley, Miller, Ames+, Lindwall, Marshall, O'Reilly, Barnes
Edit: I see that (unsurprisingly) this question was discussed on the forum in 2007, with pretty similar teams... which suggests that the "died in the last 10 years" XI wouldn't be especially strong...
Hobbs, Grace, Hammond, Ranji, Jessop, Gatting*, Foster, Lilley+, Rhodes, Richardson, Barnes
Trumper, Ponsford, Hill, McCabe, Armstrong, Border*, Gregory, Giffen, Oldfield+, McDonald, Grimmett
Naturally, besides Border and Gatting, only players who had died before the end of 1988 could be included. That got me wondering - could you get a stronger XI from currently living players or from deceased players? The XIs being something like:
Gavaskar, Richards (B), Richards (V), Pollock, Tendulkar, Sobers, Gilchrist, Imran, Hadlee, Warne, McGrath
Hobbs, Hutton, Bradman, Hammond, Headley, Miller, Ames+, Lindwall, Marshall, O'Reilly, Barnes
Edit: I see that (unsurprisingly) this question was discussed on the forum in 2007, with pretty similar teams... which suggests that the "died in the last 10 years" XI wouldn't be especially strong...
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Red
The normal awards that everyone else has
The ideal bowling attack in an ATG test team.
What would you consider an ideal attack in an ATG test team. Do you consider variety (such as a combo or left and right armers), or just the out and out best bowlers regardless of variety. Do you give some consideration to batting ability when selecting your bowling attack? Do you consider roles played by bowler, such as bowlers who were very good at bowling with the older ball as well as the new ball? Do you consider overall effectiveness against all opponents in all conditions? And considering the potential combinations available, do you consider playing two spinners in your ATG XI.
Variety is perhaps why Wasim Akram is often selected as a left arm quick, and I think he was the best, although Alan Davidson doesn't fall far behind if at all. They are realistically probably the only two left armers vying for a place in a true ATG team, as the next tier are players like Johnston, Johnson and Voce, all fine bowlers but none truly ATGs. And then we might consider that most teams already have Sobers, so is a left arm quick an absolute necessity?
If we consider batting ability, we consider team balance slightly over pure bowling ability. In this scenario, we would have to strongly consider strong allrounders like Imran, Kapil and Botham, as well as bowlers such as Hadlee, Wasim and Marshall who were all good with the bat. And then there are players like Miller, who isn't often considered but would certainly be a far better than average #8. And we have to question whether these players will contribute more to the team as a whole than slightly better bowlers (arguably) with very limited batting ability such as McGrath, Ambrose, Holding, Garner etc.
In considering roles it'd be easy to argue that plenty of quicks would be ideal with the new ball, but what about the ball that is 60 overs old. Wasim and Garner were both particularly good bowlers with the older ball, which could be vital in this scenario. Perhaps there are others as well?
Considering their records against all opponents in all conditions, I'd rank Marshall and McGrath as the two greatest quicks of all time. Both have impeccable records in both India and England, as well as great records everywhere they played.
On the subject of two spinners, which could be viable to a match played under certain conditions, the question becomes are you happy with Sobers as your third seamer (I think I would be in India), or does it necessitate the inclusion of Miller or Kallis in the top 6?
What would you consider an ideal attack in an ATG test team. Do you consider variety (such as a combo or left and right armers), or just the out and out best bowlers regardless of variety. Do you give some consideration to batting ability when selecting your bowling attack? Do you consider roles played by bowler, such as bowlers who were very good at bowling with the older ball as well as the new ball? Do you consider overall effectiveness against all opponents in all conditions? And considering the potential combinations available, do you consider playing two spinners in your ATG XI.
Variety is perhaps why Wasim Akram is often selected as a left arm quick, and I think he was the best, although Alan Davidson doesn't fall far behind if at all. They are realistically probably the only two left armers vying for a place in a true ATG team, as the next tier are players like Johnston, Johnson and Voce, all fine bowlers but none truly ATGs. And then we might consider that most teams already have Sobers, so is a left arm quick an absolute necessity?
If we consider batting ability, we consider team balance slightly over pure bowling ability. In this scenario, we would have to strongly consider strong allrounders like Imran, Kapil and Botham, as well as bowlers such as Hadlee, Wasim and Marshall who were all good with the bat. And then there are players like Miller, who isn't often considered but would certainly be a far better than average #8. And we have to question whether these players will contribute more to the team as a whole than slightly better bowlers (arguably) with very limited batting ability such as McGrath, Ambrose, Holding, Garner etc.
In considering roles it'd be easy to argue that plenty of quicks would be ideal with the new ball, but what about the ball that is 60 overs old. Wasim and Garner were both particularly good bowlers with the older ball, which could be vital in this scenario. Perhaps there are others as well?
Considering their records against all opponents in all conditions, I'd rank Marshall and McGrath as the two greatest quicks of all time. Both have impeccable records in both India and England, as well as great records everywhere they played.
On the subject of two spinners, which could be viable to a match played under certain conditions, the question becomes are you happy with Sobers as your third seamer (I think I would be in India), or does it necessitate the inclusion of Miller or Kallis in the top 6?
watson
Banned
Nice post Red Hill.
I think tha the 1980s West Indian pace attack worked because Holding, Roberts, Marshall, Garner and Croft each had very different styles despite all being Right-Arm-Fast. So I think that variety is the key.
Therefore, I'd rather pick Marshall-Ambrose-Imran over Lillee-Hadlee-McGrath as the latter are all basically the same (misers with classical actions who attack the off-stump).
I don't think that a left-armer is compulsory if the attack already has variety. So if you consider the likes of Imran or Hadlee to be significantly better than Akram or Davidson then pick them.
The more interesting question I reckon is whether a 'medium-spinner' (to use pre-1940s terminology) like Lohmann, Barnes or O'Reilly should be included at the expence of a fast bowler?
I think tha the 1980s West Indian pace attack worked because Holding, Roberts, Marshall, Garner and Croft each had very different styles despite all being Right-Arm-Fast. So I think that variety is the key.
Therefore, I'd rather pick Marshall-Ambrose-Imran over Lillee-Hadlee-McGrath as the latter are all basically the same (misers with classical actions who attack the off-stump).
I don't think that a left-armer is compulsory if the attack already has variety. So if you consider the likes of Imran or Hadlee to be significantly better than Akram or Davidson then pick them.
The more interesting question I reckon is whether a 'medium-spinner' (to use pre-1940s terminology) like Lohmann, Barnes or O'Reilly should be included at the expence of a fast bowler?
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stephen
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
In reverse batting order:
Murali
Marshall
Warne
Davidson
Imran
Gilchrist+
Sobers
Richards
Bradman (c)
Hobbs
Tendulkar
Tendulkar fits in only as opener. I don't think it's that much of a specialist position that he couldn't handle it.
Having both Warne and Murali gives so many options. Davidson is the perfect first change quick and offers good batting. Imran is criminally underrated and Marshall was possibly the best quick of all time.
I considered Miller to bat at 7 but Imran was better.
Murali
Marshall
Warne
Davidson
Imran
Gilchrist+
Sobers
Richards
Bradman (c)
Hobbs
Tendulkar
Tendulkar fits in only as opener. I don't think it's that much of a specialist position that he couldn't handle it.
Having both Warne and Murali gives so many options. Davidson is the perfect first change quick and offers good batting. Imran is criminally underrated and Marshall was possibly the best quick of all time.
I considered Miller to bat at 7 but Imran was better.