The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[OverratedSanity]

Yeah if you're basing it on longevity, either you rate both Headley and Pollock or neither of them

 

[Red]

Ian Chappell on G.Pollock.

 

[harsh.ag]

Yeah if you're basing it on longevity, either you rate both Headley and Pollock or neither of them

Difference I think is we have footage of Pollock being awesome.

 

[watson]

In my opinion, not quite.

Sachin and Lara were both tested over a decade plus in a variety of conditions and opponents. They endured the ups and downs and surges and slumps in form that the test of time provided.

Pollock basically played 20 tests in what may have been his absolute prime. Even though Headley played a similar amour of tests, his were spread out over a decade plus.

And before it is mentioned, even though Barry played in fewer tests. He proved his mettle in various arenas over his career. Be it first class cricket in different countries against the best of the best or WSC. Pollock basically played the remainder of his career playing 1st class cricket for S.A..

There was also anecdotal evidence that he struggles vs the short ball.


I am not saying he wasn't great, but Sachin and Lara just proved them selves beyond a shadow of a doubt against the very best in all conditions and against all comers. They had the technique, flair and resolve that only the very best had.

Hi Kyear.....

Graeme Pollock played 2 Tests against a West Indian side in 1982/83 and a further 4 Tests in 1983/84. The West Indian bowlers were Sylvester Clarke, Colin Croft, Bernard Julien, Franklin Stephenson, Ezra Mozeley, Hartley Alleyne and Derick Parry.

West Indies XI tour of South Africa 1982/83 | Cricket news, live scores, fixtures, features and statistics on ESPN Cricinfo
West Indies XI tour of South Africa 1983/84 | Cricket news, live scores, fixtures, features and statistics on ESPN Cricinfo


1982/83
100
43*
73
1

1983/84.
62
DNB
102
DNB
41
46
0
42

Average = 56.67

Bearing in mind that he was nearly 40 years old when he confronted Sylvester Clarke and Colin Croft I think that his 50+ average proves that intimidatory fast bowling never fazed him too much.

In all Graeme Pollock played 16 'Rebel Tests' against England, West Indies, Sri Lanka, and Australia between 1981 and 1987. Rodney Hogg and Carl Rackemann led the Australian pace attack during both 1985/86 and 1986/87 tours

During those 16 Tests he scored 1376 runs at an average of 65.52, Highest Score 197.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_rebel_tours


Personally I like to think that Pollock averaged 60+ over 39 Tests rather than just 23.

 

[The Sean]

Completing the full Unofficial Test record for RG Pollock, you can also include his ROTW series in 1970 and 1971/72. Those weren't as successful - his 8 matches yielded 459 runs at 35.30 - but he did score a sparkling century in both series. The hit his average takes for those two series is lessened by his outstanding performances against the Rebel sides in the 1980s.

His overall record would then read:

47 "Tests" - 4,091 runs at 57.62. Pretty bloody impressive, when you consider the quality of bowling he faced and how old he was by the end of it all.

 

[mr_mister]

To think if Headley didn't return for those random 3 post war tests when he was 40+ his test average would have remained basically 70 and he would take firm command of the 'second best after Bradman' spot in the eyes of many. I imagine during WW2 that was the common review of him.

What the hell was he doing playing a test in 1954 at the age of 45..

 

[fredfertang]

What the hell was he doing playing a test in 1954 at the age of 45..

The Jamaican public clubbed together to get the funds together to bring him over from England - probs felt he couldn't say no

 

[AndrewB]

To think if Headley didn't return for those random 3 post war tests when he was 40+ his test average would have remained basically 70 and he would take firm command of the 'second best after Bradman' spot in the eyes of many. I imagine during WW2 that was the common review of him.

What the hell was he doing playing a test in 1954 at the age of 45..

His average in pre-war Tests was 66.71 (it had been 69.44 a couple of Tests earlier). Hammond was also probably ill-advised to continue after the war - his average had been 61.45. (Hutton's, from just 13 Tests, was 67.25).

In his book of the 53-4 series Swanton reckoned the 45-year-old Headley still had a very sound defence but could no longer play many strokes. He managed a fifty in the pre-Test Jamaica v MCC game.

 

[Red]

Just considering whether you'd be better making an ATG ODI XI with hard hitting bowling all-rounders all the way down the order rather than pure specialist bowlers?

Tendulkar
Gilchrist +
Richards
Ponting
DeVilliers
Symonds
Shakib
Klusener
Flintoff
Kapil
Pollock

Could make some immense totals, and still has three proper quicks, Shakib, and Symonds/Klusener

 

[watson]

Just considering whether you'd be better making an ATG ODI XI with hard hitting bowling all-rounders all the way down the order rather than pure specialist bowlers?

Tendulkar
Gilchrist +
Richards
Ponting
DeVilliers
Symonds
Shakib
Klusener
Flintoff
Kapil
Pollock

Could make some immense totals, and still has three proper quicks, Shakib, and Symonds/Klusener

Wouldn't mind having Dhoni at No.6 to shepherd the tail through the final overs and make sure that it stays focused.

Also wondering whether Shakib is the best 'spinning allrounder' in ODI history?


01. Shane Watson
02. Sachin Tendulkar
03. Virat Kohli
04. Viv Richards
05. AB de Villiers
06. MS Dhoni
07. Andrew Flintoff
08. Shakib al Hasan
09. Kapil Dev
10. Richard Hadlee
11. Wasim Akram


In a way I reckon the above team is stronger than the typical ATG team that has the weakest tail ever - Wasim, Garner, Murali, McGrath.

The modern game with its unrestricted hitting from the first over means that a team should ideally bat down to do No.9 in case that there is a mini-collapse. The last coach to advovate 'wicket-preservation' was Bob Simpson.

 

[kyear2]

Yeah if you're basing it on longevity, either you rate both Headley and Pollock or neither of them

I have never said I don't rate Pollock. Haven't done one in a very long time but I believe I have Pollock in my second or third team. Possibly 3rd.

But we are comparing him to Tendulkar and Richards. I think Pollock was a superb batsman and definite ATG. But Sachin is seen as a top 3 batsman of all time with Bradman and Sobers. Viv is normally seen as being next in line.

My 2nd team 4 and 5 is Chappell (edges out because of slip catching) and Lara. I rate Pollock very highly. But not ahead of Sachin and Richards and what they did over the course of their long successful and inpactful careers. I also place Lara (minutely behind Sachin in their era) in that category ahead of Pollock. That isn't much.

 

[the big bambino]

Simpson had great success though and he was right. The era of small boundaries and super bats has changed tactics.

 

[watson]

After analysing Botham's stats in some other threads it appears that Botham was not really up to scratch batting at No.6 when having to face up to the genuine quicks. Great at No.7 with less pressure to perform, but not really a top order batsman with the appropriate technique.

So what about Tony Greig who averaged 40 with bat, 32 with the ball and was a regular No.6 for England? Is he good enough to play in an ATG England XI as the batting allrounder?

 

[watson]

He did score a ton against Holding and Roberts at their peak which something that Botham never did.

 

[Lillian Thomson]

I remember Botham's first innings as captain against the West Indies. He made 50 odd after all the other batsman had struggled, including a straight 6 off Andy Roberts. He looked a genuinely class Test batsman and then got himself out as was his won't. He made another couple of half centuries against them but he never played as well again as he did during that first innings.

 

[Coronis]

Yeah Grieg quality all rounder who often gets overlooked but not near Beefy's level with the ball imo.

 

[AndrewB]

Following a comment from a Somerset fan about how sad it was that Trescothick would never play for a Championship-winning side, I was wondering what the best England team of such players would be: maybe

Marcus Trescothick
CB Fry
Wally Hammond
Ranjitsinhji
Ted Dexter
Tony Greig*
Les Ames+
Maurice Tate
David Allen
Frank Tyson
Sydney Barnes

 

[Red]

An Australian ODI XI of guys who never played an ODI


1. Don Bradman - (Obviously), why wouldn't you want him out there facing as many balls as possible. Opening like Sachin did, but clearly much, much better. Would be rarely dismissed in ODI cricket, and would make around 160 each time he batted.

2. Jack Gregory - With the bat would be a combination of Shane Watson and Dave Warner. Big hitter, left hander and able to accelerate at will. Would be an asset with the ball as well, able to strike when required with his express pace. As a fielder he was peerless in the slips, and excellent elsewhere.

3. Stan McCabe - Much like Ponting at number 3, McCabe could bat long through an innings and also accelerate as required. Visually beautiful with the bat, strong driver and puller/hooker, McCabe was also a better than handy change bowler and one of cricket history's most likeable men.

4. Victor Trumper - Would be ideal in the number 4 role, the greatest on terrible wickets, he would be ideal to face the middle overs of spin and medium pace in an ODI.

5. Keith Miller - Batting in his preferred test spot, big hitting Miller could either take to the bowling or bat through some overs in an orthodox fashion. His bowling would be ideal in ODI cricket, sharp and hostile but economical as well. An outstanding fieldsman, he would be perfect in ODI cricket.

6. Neil Harvey - Harvey would assume the Bevan/Hussey role of finishing an innings or stabilising it if required. A clever left hander who could place shots, Harvey would have been an excellent ODI cricketer. One of the greatest fieldsmen of all time as well.

7. Charlie Macartney - Although he batted higher up the order in tests, it's easy to imagine Macartney taking a Symonds type role towards the bowling, and absolutely flogging the bowlers in the middle to late overs. His left arm spin just adds to an already well balanced attack.

8. Richie Benaud - A hard hitting, if inconsistent batsman, Benaud's style of batting would be ideal in the lower middle order of an ODI XI. A highly skilled leggie with a knack of trying things that work, Benaud would also be ideal to skipper the team. Brilliant fielder in the gully as well.

9. Ray Lindwall - Lindwall's accuracy and pace would put him in the league of Brett Lee and Allan Donald as a ferocious ODI force. Quick, hostile and accurate, and also a very handy batsman and fielder.

10. Alan Davidson - Another miserly and highly skilled pace bowler, Davo would provide naggingly accurate left arm pace and would be an exceptional death bowler, as well as providing batting depth.

11. Bert Oldfield + - With so much all round talent in the XI it makes sense to play the best wicketkeeper possible, and one with a great knack for the tactical side of the game. Better than handy with the bat, incidentally.

 

[mr_mister]

Looks great red hill. Would love to see someone attempt one for England, WI and SA


You've got crazy depth there in batting and bowling, but I wonder if a Grimmett or Ironmonger could squeeze in over benaud, due to their ultra impressive economy rates. Teams couldn't buy a run off Grimmett

 

[Red]

England, perhaps...

Les Ames +
WG Grace
Jack Hobbs
Duleep
Frank Woolley
Denis Compton
Gilbert Jessop
Hedley Verity
Harold Larwood
SF Barnes
Alec Bedser