smash84
The Tiger King
Ouch.
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20 Cwers ranked 18 all-rounders. Here is the countdown list!
- Thread starter mr_mister
- Start date
Howe_zat
Audio File
Some people make a career on those figures. Ashley Giles played 54 tests
Fine in theory, but unless you've got a keeper-batsman or another batting all-rounder (which England didn't in the mid 80s) that means you're playing Botham as one of a 4-man attack, which became a problem when his bowling average was drifting up into the high 30s.
weldone
Hall of Fame Member
Haha ya one of the most overrated cricket careers overall
Sami's bowling + Sammy's batting in those 25 tests lol
Starfighter
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I reckon you could say that Botham's career was Keith Miller at the start and Chris Lewis at the end.
mr_mister
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
2nd. Imran Khan
554 points
Batting: 8th (215 points)
Bowling: 2nd (339 points)
There's only a very slim margin between Imran and Miller. Both deserve the number 1 spot. Imran's batting ranking just letting him down. Oh well.
Imran has insane career test stats @ 37 and 22 with bat and ball. He is considered an icon of Pakistani bowling, their first of quite a few express quicks who could swing it a mile. He set the standard for them which some arguably surpassed, but none of those players could bat anywhere near as good as him. So he's pretty much objectively Pakistan's best ever player.
Across 14 tests in 1982 and 1983 Imran took 88 wickets @ 14 and scored 717 runs @ 65. From then on the going wasn't quite as good, but he still maintained a terrific average with both bat and ball. Up until that point it the going had been bleh but he had an amazing back half to his career which is hard not to respect the hell out of. A reverse Botham, he got better and better with age. Imran was meh through the entire 70s, going by his stats. He did take wickets but at a crappy average. He scored one fifty the entire decade. He was still meant to be an all-rounder it seems as he was always used at 8 and above in the batting line-up, but for whatever reason he just wasn't a very good one back then. He notched up 6 tons and 18 fifties overall, and did basically all of that in his thirties. It's pretty crazy that a bowler could apply themselves and become a legit top 7 bat(often 6). Especially at the age he started to click. Great determination.
His bowling started off better than his batting and probably improved at the same rate. But since his bowling began better the steady improvement ended up elevating Imran to ATG status with the ball where his batting just reached world-class level. 37 makes him look merely competent with the bat but averaging 50 across the second half of his career was necessary to get it that high. He had to salvage a batting average damaged heavily in the 1970s. Again, before my time, and I've seen plenty of people say he was overrated with the bat here(and Miller overrated with the ball), but numbers don't lie. Clearly he was vital to Pakistan putting up a decent total in the back half of his career if he averaged so high for so long. His bowling is less scrutinised, naturally.
554 points
Batting: 8th (215 points)
Bowling: 2nd (339 points)
There's only a very slim margin between Imran and Miller. Both deserve the number 1 spot. Imran's batting ranking just letting him down. Oh well.
Imran has insane career test stats @ 37 and 22 with bat and ball. He is considered an icon of Pakistani bowling, their first of quite a few express quicks who could swing it a mile. He set the standard for them which some arguably surpassed, but none of those players could bat anywhere near as good as him. So he's pretty much objectively Pakistan's best ever player.
Across 14 tests in 1982 and 1983 Imran took 88 wickets @ 14 and scored 717 runs @ 65. From then on the going wasn't quite as good, but he still maintained a terrific average with both bat and ball. Up until that point it the going had been bleh but he had an amazing back half to his career which is hard not to respect the hell out of. A reverse Botham, he got better and better with age. Imran was meh through the entire 70s, going by his stats. He did take wickets but at a crappy average. He scored one fifty the entire decade. He was still meant to be an all-rounder it seems as he was always used at 8 and above in the batting line-up, but for whatever reason he just wasn't a very good one back then. He notched up 6 tons and 18 fifties overall, and did basically all of that in his thirties. It's pretty crazy that a bowler could apply themselves and become a legit top 7 bat(often 6). Especially at the age he started to click. Great determination.
His bowling started off better than his batting and probably improved at the same rate. But since his bowling began better the steady improvement ended up elevating Imran to ATG status with the ball where his batting just reached world-class level. 37 makes him look merely competent with the bat but averaging 50 across the second half of his career was necessary to get it that high. He had to salvage a batting average damaged heavily in the 1970s. Again, before my time, and I've seen plenty of people say he was overrated with the bat here(and Miller overrated with the ball), but numbers don't lie. Clearly he was vital to Pakistan putting up a decent total in the back half of his career if he averaged so high for so long. His bowling is less scrutinised, naturally.
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smash84
The Tiger King
Loved it. I thought it would be close between Imran and Miller, with Miller a more rounded all rounder. Two of the most colorful characters to grace the cricketing field. But yeah imran was immense for Pakistan cricket. Inspired a generation of fast bowlers and actually mentored them in how to set batsmen up and take wickets. Pretty much always achieved what he wanted to by working hard for it. As you say it wasn't easy for him to lift that crappy early batting average to 37.
The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
Imran was an extraordinary player. I've said before that, due to his achievements as an all-rounder/captain/heart-throb/general God of Pakistani cricket, I think he's actually underrated as a pure bowler. Between the tour of Australia in 1981/82 and hosting the West Indies in 1986 he averaged sub-20 with the ball for eight consecutive series. The fact that at his peak in the 1980s Imran more than held his own alongside Marshall and Hadlee tells you all you need to know about his quality.
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Lillian Thomson
Hall of Fame Member
Pleasantly surprised to see Imran not win. He used to be grotesquely overrated on CW. Now only slightly. I remember many years ago a fast bowler thread where he was being rated the best ever by some and I made a joke about it and an Imran groupie named something like Buttender Spit posted all over the place saying I was racist.
The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
I wouldn't call him the best ever, but I also don't think he's wildly out of place in that discussion.
Lillian Thomson
Hall of Fame Member
I think the discussion was on the top 10 and I just said as a throw away joke that England, Australia and the West Indies have all had 10 better fast bowlers than Imran. The thread must still be out there somewhere.
Howe_zat
Audio File
It's often commented on how Imran stopped bowling at the end of his career, but he bowled in all but four of his 88 Test matches so it's not likely to have a huge effect on his record. He took his last five-for in 1988 against the West Indies, after he was for a couple of years a mid-30s averaging bowler with a good economy - not unlike a few of the more defended bowlers in this group - until his penultimate series. In that time he still bowled around 38 overs per test according to cricinfo which isn't really a 'giving up bowling' stage, though certainly a different player to his peak.
His peak is ludicrous ftr. 1981-88 he managed to go at 48 with the bat (3 tons) and 16 with the ball (13 five-fors). I don't really know how he managed that given he didn't score many big innings but it's mad no matter which way you slice it.
His peak is ludicrous ftr. 1981-88 he managed to go at 48 with the bat (3 tons) and 16 with the ball (13 five-fors). I don't really know how he managed that given he didn't score many big innings but it's mad no matter which way you slice it.
mr_mister
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
1st. Keith Miller
565 points
Batting: 4th (287 points)
Bowling: 4th (278 points)
Wow, that's some serious synchronicity with the rankings. 4th and 4th and less than ten points between bat and ball. The truest of all-rounders, Miller's position in the Australian test team was akin to that kid in the U/12s who the coach loved and let bat and bowl all the time. He nearly always took the new ball with Lindwall. He nearly always batted at 5. Sometimes 4. Occasionally 3. He scored test tons at all 3 of those positions and usually came in right after Harvey. A few times it was Bradman. He was expected to make match-winning contributions with both bat and ball his whole test career.
Let's look at his batting first. He was said to be a classical batsman who possessed all the shots in the book. He averaged nearly 50 in first class cricket and was probably expected to average somewhere near there in tests. He didn't however. An average of 37 is often said to not do justice to his skill. He scored 7 test tons, which is the same amount as Clem Hill who played about the same amount of matches(like Clem he was unlucky enough to score a 99 too). Trumper only got one more than Miller in a test career of similar length. Miller scored one ton early on in his career, a few in the middle and a few more near the end. So they were spaced out; he was always capable of getting a big score. There was no obvious strong or weak period. But he should have gotten more than Clem and Trumper. He batted in a post-Bradman world where a sub-40 average is rarely considered a successful batting career.
In his defence, he played a little over half his tests against England which possessed its strongest ever array of bowlers. They had crazy depth with their quicks and spinners throughout Miller's career. He also played a lot against the West Indies who had the spin twins and South Africa who had Tayfield. He didn't get the chance to really cash in against minnow attacks, scoring only 2 fifties against India, NZ and Pakistan in a limited amount of matches. He always played against the best and had his fair share of victories against them. He apparently had a casual attitude to the game which meant he might have tried to entertain with the bat moreso than knuckle down. And let's not forget he used up energy opening the bowling as well.
His bowling was perhaps more important to the team given the amount of batting depth they had at the time. His bowling record fits the more conventional idea of an ATG, so at a glance it's tempting to consider him a bowling all-rounder. He employed a wide range of tricks from slower cutters to yorkers to lethal bouncers. He was quick too. He didn't take a huge amount of wickets per match, but he kept things tight and took them cheaply, claiming them at just under 23 a piece. He once had to shoulder the burden of 70 overs in an Ashes test when Lindwall picked up an injury. Miller got a 10fer for his troubles. His bowling was something his batting wasn't at test level, reliable.
Miller was basically icing-on-the-cake to his team, he played alongside many legendary players. In this way he was different to all 4 of the big four All-rounders, who were clearly their country's most valued asset during their prime. Miller's prime was basically his whole career. It was brief due to the war but he was always consistent throughout. Whether or not his bowling was overrated or batting underrated or vice versa, his stats still make for some amazing reading. A very all-rounder player, and a worthy #1 in this list.
Thanks for the all nice feedback and to everyone who casted votes!
565 points
Batting: 4th (287 points)
Bowling: 4th (278 points)
Wow, that's some serious synchronicity with the rankings. 4th and 4th and less than ten points between bat and ball. The truest of all-rounders, Miller's position in the Australian test team was akin to that kid in the U/12s who the coach loved and let bat and bowl all the time. He nearly always took the new ball with Lindwall. He nearly always batted at 5. Sometimes 4. Occasionally 3. He scored test tons at all 3 of those positions and usually came in right after Harvey. A few times it was Bradman. He was expected to make match-winning contributions with both bat and ball his whole test career.
Let's look at his batting first. He was said to be a classical batsman who possessed all the shots in the book. He averaged nearly 50 in first class cricket and was probably expected to average somewhere near there in tests. He didn't however. An average of 37 is often said to not do justice to his skill. He scored 7 test tons, which is the same amount as Clem Hill who played about the same amount of matches(like Clem he was unlucky enough to score a 99 too). Trumper only got one more than Miller in a test career of similar length. Miller scored one ton early on in his career, a few in the middle and a few more near the end. So they were spaced out; he was always capable of getting a big score. There was no obvious strong or weak period. But he should have gotten more than Clem and Trumper. He batted in a post-Bradman world where a sub-40 average is rarely considered a successful batting career.
In his defence, he played a little over half his tests against England which possessed its strongest ever array of bowlers. They had crazy depth with their quicks and spinners throughout Miller's career. He also played a lot against the West Indies who had the spin twins and South Africa who had Tayfield. He didn't get the chance to really cash in against minnow attacks, scoring only 2 fifties against India, NZ and Pakistan in a limited amount of matches. He always played against the best and had his fair share of victories against them. He apparently had a casual attitude to the game which meant he might have tried to entertain with the bat moreso than knuckle down. And let's not forget he used up energy opening the bowling as well.
His bowling was perhaps more important to the team given the amount of batting depth they had at the time. His bowling record fits the more conventional idea of an ATG, so at a glance it's tempting to consider him a bowling all-rounder. He employed a wide range of tricks from slower cutters to yorkers to lethal bouncers. He was quick too. He didn't take a huge amount of wickets per match, but he kept things tight and took them cheaply, claiming them at just under 23 a piece. He once had to shoulder the burden of 70 overs in an Ashes test when Lindwall picked up an injury. Miller got a 10fer for his troubles. His bowling was something his batting wasn't at test level, reliable.
Miller was basically icing-on-the-cake to his team, he played alongside many legendary players. In this way he was different to all 4 of the big four All-rounders, who were clearly their country's most valued asset during their prime. Miller's prime was basically his whole career. It was brief due to the war but he was always consistent throughout. Whether or not his bowling was overrated or batting underrated or vice versa, his stats still make for some amazing reading. A very all-rounder player, and a worthy #1 in this list.
Thanks for the all nice feedback and to everyone who casted votes!
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Lillian Thomson
Hall of Fame Member
According to Stats Guru Imran played 40 matches 1981-88 and took 206 wickets at 17.23 and averaged 41.92 with the bat.
a massive zebra
International Captain
Congratulations mr_mister, you really did an exceptional job here! 
