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20 Cwers ranked 18 all-rounders. Here is the countdown list!
- Thread starter mr_mister
- Start date
Lillian Thomson
Hall of Fame Member
Although it's good that this system ranks genuine all rounders like Botham and Miller higher than they normally would be, it's also true that if you replace Kallis with Lara or Tendulkar they would finish in about the same spot as he did.
srbhkshk
International Captain
Tendulkar would have been a genuine all rounder in countries with less spin options than India.
mr_mister
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
true. its a very contained system only suitable once you've already got a shortlist of who you think are the best all-rounders
Davidson would have probably figured quite high in the list too.
Victor Ian
International Coach
Just for the record - This is an great thing you've done here MM. (and all of you that voted for this to be done). I'm immensely enjoying this.
marc71178
Eyes not spreadsheets
Your 2 sentences contradict themselves.
Adders
Cricketer Of The Year
+1 to that. I don't normally get into these threads at all but this one has been great. Loving the write ups MM has been doing too........great work.
weldone
Hall of Fame Member
No they don't. Jadeja is a better bowler than those two.
marc71178
Eyes not spreadsheets
Only because the other 2 are now long retired.
weldone
Hall of Fame Member
Nah Jadeja was a better bowler in 2000 too.
mr_mister
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
3rd. Ian Botham
535 points
Batting: 5th (259 points)
Bowling: 5th (276 points)
Beefy is the first person to appear on this list to make both the top 5 for batting and bowling. He may not be the last. What a feat though from Botham. Capable of such great heights with bat and ball. What a balanced all-rounder. His career however was anything but balanced. Its the perfect example of what can happen to your reputation if you hang around too long past your use-by date. At the halfway point of his test career, after 51 of 102 matches, he averaged 38 with the bat and 23 with the ball. He got nearly all his test centuries and five fers from 77-84, yet played all the way to 1992.
His explosive batting and effective swing bowling were once of equal use to his team. Usually batting at 6(but having more success at 7) and either taking the new ball or bowling first change, Botham was essential to England's success in the late 70s and early 80s. He was a household name when he was still in his twenties. But as we all know he didn't age like fine wine. Weight issues, legal troubles, a rocky marriage, Botham's skills seemed to falter as issues arose in his personal life. I'm not necessarily saying these two things were strongly linked, as Shane Warne went through all that stuff and it had no effect on his playing ability. But surely the weight gain affected Beefy's bowling ability. He still took wickets regularly enough, and an aggregate of 383 wickets is nothing to scoff at. But they ended up costing 28 a piece, his bowing became such a spent force by the end of his career. A quote from his cricinfo article suggested he simply 'ran in and hoped' with the ball by the end.
14 centuries is also a super impressive amount for an all-rounder in theory, but his final test batting average of 34 makes him look a little toothless compared to his early days. People just expected so much more. In the back half of his career he just stopped scoring test tons, hell by the final few years he could barely score a fifty, but he could still smash a few entertaining boundaries here and there. Not including 1977 where he only played the 2 tests, the first year he didn't manage to score a test ton(1985) was the year that he had his highest ever batting strike-rate, striking at a mammoth 86 in tests(his previous best for a year was 74). Interesting. Did his concentration and passion wane? Sounds like he became a bit of Boom-Boom Afridi by the end, everyone hoping he could hammer a classic century like old times when he walked out to bat, but everyone secretly knowing he'd likely throw it away early.
I didn't see Botham play, I was too young, so I can't make too many comments on why his career just fell off a cliff those last 7-8 years. But surely there must be a correlation between his attitude to test cricket changing and his dwindling returns. Botham's test career resembles a sprinting champion having a go at the 800m, or McGregor in his recent Mayweather fight. He came out swinging but just couldn't last the distance.
Botham's 1981 Ashes performance must surely stand as one of the greatest if not the greatest all-round series performances ever. He won matches with bat and ball in glorious fashion. 3rd seems like a worthy position for him.
535 points
Batting: 5th (259 points)
Bowling: 5th (276 points)
Beefy is the first person to appear on this list to make both the top 5 for batting and bowling. He may not be the last. What a feat though from Botham. Capable of such great heights with bat and ball. What a balanced all-rounder. His career however was anything but balanced. Its the perfect example of what can happen to your reputation if you hang around too long past your use-by date. At the halfway point of his test career, after 51 of 102 matches, he averaged 38 with the bat and 23 with the ball. He got nearly all his test centuries and five fers from 77-84, yet played all the way to 1992.
His explosive batting and effective swing bowling were once of equal use to his team. Usually batting at 6(but having more success at 7) and either taking the new ball or bowling first change, Botham was essential to England's success in the late 70s and early 80s. He was a household name when he was still in his twenties. But as we all know he didn't age like fine wine. Weight issues, legal troubles, a rocky marriage, Botham's skills seemed to falter as issues arose in his personal life. I'm not necessarily saying these two things were strongly linked, as Shane Warne went through all that stuff and it had no effect on his playing ability. But surely the weight gain affected Beefy's bowling ability. He still took wickets regularly enough, and an aggregate of 383 wickets is nothing to scoff at. But they ended up costing 28 a piece, his bowing became such a spent force by the end of his career. A quote from his cricinfo article suggested he simply 'ran in and hoped' with the ball by the end.
14 centuries is also a super impressive amount for an all-rounder in theory, but his final test batting average of 34 makes him look a little toothless compared to his early days. People just expected so much more. In the back half of his career he just stopped scoring test tons, hell by the final few years he could barely score a fifty, but he could still smash a few entertaining boundaries here and there. Not including 1977 where he only played the 2 tests, the first year he didn't manage to score a test ton(1985) was the year that he had his highest ever batting strike-rate, striking at a mammoth 86 in tests(his previous best for a year was 74). Interesting. Did his concentration and passion wane? Sounds like he became a bit of Boom-Boom Afridi by the end, everyone hoping he could hammer a classic century like old times when he walked out to bat, but everyone secretly knowing he'd likely throw it away early.
I didn't see Botham play, I was too young, so I can't make too many comments on why his career just fell off a cliff those last 7-8 years. But surely there must be a correlation between his attitude to test cricket changing and his dwindling returns. Botham's test career resembles a sprinting champion having a go at the 800m, or McGregor in his recent Mayweather fight. He came out swinging but just couldn't last the distance.
Botham's 1981 Ashes performance must surely stand as one of the greatest if not the greatest all-round series performances ever. He won matches with bat and ball in glorious fashion. 3rd seems like a worthy position for him.
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SillyCowCorner1
Moooo
Yeah, that Ashes defined him; the same thing happened to Flintoff in 05
Howe_zat
Audio File
Despite having been ranked equally with bat and ball, I think Beefy was at his most effective as a bowler opening with Bob Willis and who steadily climbed the batting order. He took he first 200 wickets at 21 and had 17 of his 21 five-fors by that point, at the end of the 1981 summer. His best years with the bat came a little later against India and Pakistan in 1982-3, albeit while still batting seven and being a key bowler.
ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
I wouldn't have been surprised if Botham had won this whole thing. Some facts that I like to mention about Botham to highlight his amazing peaks:
- Only player EVER to achieve 800+ ICC rating points as both batsman and bowler
- Only player EVER to score 10+ centuries and take 10+ fivers
- Only player EVER to score a century and take a fiver in same match 5 times; no one has done it more than twice
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Lillian Thomson
Hall of Fame Member
I always maintain that Botham is the most naturally gifted (if you believe in such a thing) all round cricketer ever. He hated nets and didn't keep himself fit, so he doesn't have the stats to go with it. I think Miller was similar. I assume Imran Khan is going to be first. He really wasn't much of a batsman until the last 5 years or so when he was past his peak as a bowler and through hard work averaged over 50 with the bat.
The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
Yeah, Botham and Miller were certainly cut from the same cloth in that respect. Miller didn't let himself go physically the same way Botham did during the second half of his career, but he had the same disregard for the mundane stuff like curfews and abstinence.
I think it'll be really close between Imran and Miller for number one - Miller I reckon will come 4th for both batting and bowling, while Imran will come 2nd to Hadlee in bowling but 6th/7th or so for batting.
I think it'll be really close between Imran and Miller for number one - Miller I reckon will come 4th for both batting and bowling, while Imran will come 2nd to Hadlee in bowling but 6th/7th or so for batting.
Against India in 1981-2 and 1982, where he averaged (across the two series) 77; he only averaged 27 against Pakistan in 1982. (Also, he'd moved up the order to 5/6 by this time).
watson
Banned
Retired by the end of 1986, a ton at home and a 30-35 average against the Windies and Botham would be just behind Sobers in most peoples minds.
Unfortunately he batted at No.6 too much. Botham always flourished with less responsibility, and so they should have left him at No.7 to swing away with the bat and maintain his average of 40 in that position.
Unfortunately he batted at No.6 too much. Botham always flourished with less responsibility, and so they should have left him at No.7 to swing away with the bat and maintain his average of 40 in that position.
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ankitj
Hall of Fame Member
Looking at reverse cumulative averages of Botham, in his last 25 tests, he scored 821 runs (at average of 23.45) and took 50 wickets (average of 42)!