***Official*** West Indies Tour of the UK 2017

[Gnske]

Exactly whom'st are those decent batting prospects so I can be eager too?

 

[Starfighter]

Exactly my thought. When guys with averages in the low thirties are getting picked or embiggened as prospects then you've got a problem.

 

[Beamer]

Exactly my thought. When guys with averages in the low thirties are getting picked or embiggened as prospects then you've got a problem.

With our cricket I honestly would not worry too much about someone averaging in the mid 30s being selected for tests. If you're averaging 35 plus on our pitches with our umpires that is honestly the equivalent of 40 plus in most other places.

But as far as prospects are concerned I guess there are a couple who could be good in Sunil Ambris and Brandon King but are they really any better than the lot selected at this stage? I don't think so. They could be in a few years but that won't help us right now.

We have a number of outstanding Under 19 prospects but again, that is not unusual for us and as WW said if the system doesn't help get them ready for test cricket we will have the same problem. One or two might make it because they're exceptional but most of them won't. There's some good work going on behind the scenes with the PCL and high level coaching of the juniors but we won't see the benefit of that for a couple of years at least.

 

[Beamer]

Re: some of the above comments about the Windies, yeah this was especially disappointing considering they’d acquitted themselves quite well against Pakistan. But those were generally on flat pitches and I think the seam and swing here really exposed their techniques; makes their limp bowling all the more baffling though.

Re: the players out of the side that could be there, the one that really hurts is Darren Bravo; for mine he’s the best bat the Windies have (certainly the best technique) and would’ve been an enormous help in these conditions.

But I think there’s too much made of the Windies players that are missing and/or were pushed out early. Someone like Ravi Rampaul looked relentlessly mediocre whenever I saw him at international level; especially Tests. I’m surprised he averaged only 34 there. And Jerome Taylor was atrocious on the last Australian tour; there were even reports he didn’t want to bowl into the wind during one of the Tests. Certainly it looked like he’d rather be anywhere else than bowling in Tests on that tour.

Jarrod Kimber wrote an article about an alternate Test XI that could’ve played but it was pretty flimsy and he seemed to write it because he had nothing else to say; just because you’re an athletic fielder or can bowl fast in T20 in its various forms doesn’t automatically mean you’ll have what it takes in Tests.

Agreed, I don't concentrate on the whole players not available argument and neither does WW. I would have Chris Gayle, Darren Bravo and Narine in the mix for tests in an ideal world personally but none of the others are really close or even that interested. We need to make the most of what we have for now.

Also agreed about the moving ball highlighting poor technique of our batsmen. In regards to the bowling performance in the last test, they were very inconsistent but this was further exaggerated by the fact we bowled on the only day of sunshine and then batted in non-stop overcast conditions. I feel the bowlers are more likely to get it right than the batsman to be honest.

 

[Starfighter]

With our cricket I honestly would not worry too much about someone averaging in the mid 30s being selected for tests. If you're averaging 35 plus on our pitches with our umpires that is honestly the equivalent of 40 plus in most other places.

It doesn't really work that way does it though? Sure there are guys with talent, but the application is lacking, and none of these batsmen really know how to build an innings. In any case of the top ten domestic scorers in the last season Shiv and Devon Smith are the only ones who'v passed 35 for the career.

While Nikita Miller's straight breaks are cleaning up at Jamaica, formerly the quickest pitch in the world, there isn't a great chance of developing good batsmen. There simply isn't the variety and quality of pitches.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I'm not bothered by laughing at how bad West Indies played. No excuse can be made for their performance, it was woeful. But I hate it when they use it as an excuse to push for separate tiers. It's really patronising and even blokes like Holding have fallen for it.

 

[Beamer]

It doesn't really work that way does it though? Sure there are guys with talent, but the application is lacking, and none of these batsmen really know how to build an innings. In any case of the top ten domestic scorers in the last season Shiv and Devon Smith are the only ones who'v passed 35 for the career.

While Nikita Miller's straight breaks are cleaning up at Jamaica, formerly the quickest pitch in the world, there isn't a great chance of developing good batsmen. There simply isn't the variety and quality of pitches.

Kraigg Braithwaite, Shai Hope and Roston Chase all average way above 40 in our FC cricket (in fact closer to 50 when you exclude their test stats). Dowrich averages around 40 excluding tests as well. Blackwood was averaging in the mid 40s in FC when he played his first test. If someone does manage to perform to that level they get selected. Having watched a lot of our domestic cricket, if you're doing that and have racked up a few big scores you're doing very well because our pitches rag it square and our umpires give you out if a spinner hits your pad.

If someone averages 35, for example, but has produced 2 seasons averaging 45 plus and got a few big centuries I believe they should be selected. The problem is that we are pretty desperate and so selecting people on how they shape up more than how many runs they've scored. Hetmeyer and Kyle Hope are chief examples of this. I agree this isn't ideal and wish it weren't so. But we're in this situation and now we need to give them as much time as realistically possible. We will be in for the odd extremely unpleasant test like this one just gone but if they show signs of obvious improvement we'll be ok.

 

[S.Kennedy]

Yes, and they (the Sky posse) bring in the poor form of teams like the West Indies to argue the tiered divisional proposal, as if a team this poor is something unique in test cricket. If this was the 1990s would they be advocated similar considering Atherton's England would be bottom of the lowest tier?

 

[ImpatientLime]

Yes, and they (the Sky posse) bring in the poor form of teams like the West Indies to argue the tiered divisional proposal, as if a team this poor is something unique in test cricket. If this was the 1990s would they be advocated similar considering Atherton's England would be bottom of the lowest tier?

well thats the thing about tiers, you move between them based on performance.

no one is asking for the west indies to be banished to the second tier for the rest of eternity.

 

[Starfighter]

Kraigg Braithwaite, Shai Hope and Roston Chase all average way above 40 in our FC cricket (in fact closer to 50 when you exclude their test stats). Dowrich averages around 40 excluding tests as well. Blackwood was averaging in the mid 40s in FC when he played his first test. If someone does manage to perform to that level they get selected. Having watched a lot of our domestic cricket, if you're doing that and have racked up a few big scores you're doing very well because our pitches rag it square and our umpires give you out if a spinner hits your pad.

If someone averages 35, for example, but has produced 2 seasons averaging 45 plus and got a few big centuries I believe they should be selected. The problem is that we are pretty desperate and so selecting people on how they shape up more than how many runs they've scored. Hetmeyer and Kyle Hope are chief examples of this. I agree this isn't ideal and wish it weren't so. But we're in this situation and now we need to give them as much time as realistically possible. We will be in for the odd extremely unpleasant test like this one just gone but if they show signs of obvious improvement we'll be ok.

I don't think Blackwood was doing that well. Blackwood's test average is actually slightly higher than his first class average, and he's only scored three centuries in forty-six non-test first class matches. He averaged just over forty the season he got his test call having averaged 28.5 the previous, and then averaged only 29 in the next two.
Hope has done better recently although iirc he was doing low thirties when first picked. Also, of those that I eluded to the majority haven't even played test cricket - Chase wasn't in the top ten season scorers this year - but they should be putting the pressure on those who have, yet they all have poor overall careers.
Even when people do well it's so patently clear that the quality just isn't there in the competition, and the fact that the pitches rag square is a big part of it.

 

[Beamer]

I don't think Blackwood was doing that well. Blackwood's test average is actually slightly higher than his first class average, and he's only scored three centuries in forty-six non-test first class matches. He averaged just over forty the season he got his test call having averaged 28.5 the previous, and then averaged only 29 in the next two.
Hope has done better recently although iirc he was doing low thirties when first picked. Also, of those that I eluded to the majority haven't even played test cricket - Chase wasn't in the top ten season scorers this year - but they should be putting the pressure on those who have, yet they all have poor overall careers.
Even when people do well it's so patently clear that the quality just isn't there in the competition, and the fact that the pitches rag square is a big part of it.

Blackwood dominated a couple of A matches with big scores hence his FC average. He had a terrible FC season last year which sent his average plummeting. Shai Hope was averaging 40 when selected. His test performance has really reduced the average. Chase has an excellent FC record even if this season wasn't his most prolific.

But anyway, I agree with your point. the batting quality isn't there at the moment and awful pitches and umpiring certainly don't help their development. Still, higher volume of FC cricket and more A team tours massively help that so some good things are being put in place.

 

[mr_mister]

Will we see Cornwall?

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

Grass roots cricket is where the talent should be nurtured. Now, every kid is being exposed to the much fancy shorter format of the game, and the beauty of test cricket gets lost in all of this. The endurance factor is also not given enough respect.

 

[WindieWeathers]

With our cricket I honestly would not worry too much about someone averaging in the mid 30s being selected for tests. If you're averaging 35 plus on our pitches with our umpires that is honestly the equivalent of 40 plus in most other places.

But as far as prospects are concerned I guess there are a couple who could be good in Sunil Ambris and Brandon King but are they really any better than the lot selected at this stage? I don't think so. They could be in a few years but that won't help us right now.

We have a number of outstanding Under 19 prospects but again, that is not unusual for us and as WW said if the system doesn't help get them ready for test cricket we will have the same problem. One or two might make it because they're exceptional but most of them won't. There's some good work going on behind the scenes with the PCL and high level coaching of the juniors but we won't see the benefit of that for a couple of years at least.

Cariah from Trinidad finished last season on fire aswell. He bats very patiently and knows how to build an innings. Alleyne also showed a lot at the begining of last season but slowed down towards the end. Then there's the likes of Yadram, Kalicheran and Stewert from the u19s who may well be playing in the PCL next season from what I hear (Yadram already made his debut for Guyana) and those three will no doubt be the future of West Indies cricket if they are handled right.

The bottom line is we've got to start winning at home first before we can expect to win away. That has to be our goal in the short term.

 

[Beamer]

Cariah from Trinidad finished last season on fire aswell. He bats very patiently and knows how to build an innings. Alleyne also showed a lot at the begining of last season but slowed down towards the end. Then there's the likes of Yadram, Kalicheran and Stewert from the u19s who may well be playing in the PCL next season from what I hear (Yadram already made his debut for Guyana) and those three will no doubt be the future of West Indies cricket if they are handled right.

The bottom line is we've got to start winning at home first before we can expect to win away. That has to be our goal in the short term.

Cariah looks good but I'll wait until he performs again next season before thinking he's ready for A team or senior cricket. Alleyne was on fine form as you said but then completely lost the plot. If he has a huge season next season he would definitely be knocking on the door. I haven't seen enough of him to comment on his technique. There are quite a few Under 19 lads that look seriously good but we'll just have to wait and see with them, it won't help us in the short term.

The ones that we really need to see mega runs from next year to force themselves into senior recognition and hopefully better times are Sunil Ambris, Yannic Cariah, Anthony Alleyne and Brandon King. I also want to keep any eye on the Under 19 WC winning players. Hetmeyer has already made it but I really like Keacy Carty. He's got a solid technique and scored the match winning innings under pressure in the Under 19 World Cup final. It's really early days but I'd love to see him build on his maiden century last year.

Totally agreed about our home forming being vital in the short term.

 

[Beamer]

Will we see Cornwall?

I honestly think we should but there is simply no way he will be selected by the current regime.

Considering how much grief the English media are giving our current lot, who might be a tad rubbish but are extremely fit athletes if nothing else. Can you imagine how they would react to Cornwall and his 18 stone frame as soon as he had a bad day? I kind of see the selectors point, Rakheem needs to get at least partially in shape. On cricket ability he would be in the team for sure.

 

[WindieWeathers]

Cariah looks good but I'll wait until he performs again next season before thinking he's ready for A team or senior cricket. Alleyne was on fine form as you said but then completely lost the plot. If he has a huge season next season he would definitely be knocking on the door. I haven't seen enough of him to comment on his technique. There are quite a few Under 19 lads that look seriously good but we'll just have to wait and see with them, it won't help us in the short term.

The ones that we really need to see mega runs from next year to force themselves into senior recognition and hopefully better times are Sunil Ambris, Yannic Cariah, Anthony Alleyne and Brandon King. I also want to keep any eye on the Under 19 WC winning players. Hetmeyer has already made it but I really like Keacy Carty. He's got a solid technique and scored the match winning innings under pressure in the Under 19 World Cup final. It's really early days but I'd love to see him build on his maiden century last year.

Totally agreed about our home forming being vital in the short term.

We've got to start using our home pitches to our advantage imo. We've pretty much got asian pitches now, so let's start using it to our advantage instead of being fixated about "pace" and all this stuff. We need to start producing better spinners and put pressure on away sides like Bangladesh did to England the other day. And you're right about Carty, he's made a very good start for Leewards. Keemo Paul has done very well for Guyana too. There's no question that talent is still there for us to be hopeful about. I'm really looking forward to the next first class season. Tage Chanderpaul is another one I'm really hoping stands up this season.

 

[honestbharani]

Now I realize how the neutrals would have felt watching the Ind SL series.

 

[S.Kennedy]

well thats the thing about tiers, you move between them based on performance.

no one is asking for the west indies to be banished to the second tier for the rest of eternity.

I do not see how this necessarily contradicts what I wrote. Whenever we see these uneven matches the ex-player media fraternity, the usual types, act like they've never seen a great team v a piss poor team before, and they've been using it to hammer home the point about the need to divisionalise for awhile now, as if these 'minnows' are somehow second class citizens and need to be made an example of.

Bollocks I say.

There is nothing particularly strange in an imbalanced test match. Of the highest innings victory margins, there are 38 above England's innings and 209 runs.

There is nothing particularly strange in an imbalanced test series. There are 56 test series (three or more tests) in which every test has been lost by a side.

There isn't anything odd about a losing streak either. West Indies still have a long way to go to reach Bangladesh and Zimbabwe's record losing streaks.

And there is nothing odd about a perceived 'super power' flopping like a pair of saggy **** for entire decades (or more). England were utter rancid for the duration of the 1990s (and sizable chunks of the '80s also). Pakistan and India have had similar whole decades of cricketing excrement. Even the Aussies have had their patchy periods such as the '80s when even England were beating them, before Border kicked them up the backsides.

That is just the way test cricket has always been. It took the Kiwis about 5 million years to win a test series. Teams do have whole wilderness periods, and go downhill, only to see others surpass them.

 

[Gnske]

Now I realize how the neutrals would have felt watching the Ind SL series.

I think most were just completely ambivalent about SL vs India series.

This series has context I guess in how awful the squad that England will send to the Ashes will be. So I suppose there's a hint of feeling at all in that.